-Are you guys ready for a -!meaningful and engaging evening?

-Yes.

We're going to have -some real talk tonight, -so I hope you guys are ready.

-I would love to introduce -Miss Myra Flynn -and Miss Tyomi Morgan.

-So last Valentine's Day, -I started thinking a lot -about the relationship -between sex and racism.

-Hear me out.

-Love is fickle enough -without adding racial -and cultural differences -!into the mix, no pun intended.

-But if those differences -are a part of your love, -!then you know there's some stuff -to overcome.

-!Stuff like stereotypes, shame, -and even the world's -perspective of you -and who you should love.

-!What your love should look like.

-These can all be very real -barriers -to the organic curiosity -it takes for us to love each -!other the very best way we can.

-This is a huge conversation -and I wasn't going -to have it alone.

-So I talked with sexologist -Tyomi Morgan, -who has previously appeared -!as a sexpert in one of our audio -podcast episodes, -!The Myth of the Big Black Penis.

-!She joined me on set at Vermont -Public Studios -in front of a live audience.

-!Well, isn't this room just sexy?

-Together -we talk about the good, bad, -ugly, and downright -sexy reasons that sex, love, -and racism have always been -a little intertwined.

-!I got a little flack for, like, -why I called this event -!what I called it sex and racism.

-Why don't we call it?

-Well, why didn't we call it -sex and race?

-Because that's not -what it's about, right?

-But they don't know yet.

So -From Vermont Public -this is homegoings, -a show that invites you -to eavesdrop -on candid conversations -with people -who will challenge -what you think you know.

-I'm Myra Flynn.

-Today, a conversation -with sexologist Tyomi Morgan -about so much more than sex.

-!We'll dig right into that tricky -space where attraction meets -fetishization, -racial curiosity -turns into racism -and how to overcome societal -tropes, barriers, -and nasty stereotypes -associated with race -that can sometimes keep us -!from loving one another better.

-!This podcast was created live in -front of an audience, -!who we also asked to participate -in a plutonic speed dating -session where they could ask -!eachother anything they wanted.

-This is homegoings.

-We're a proud member of the -NPR network.

-Welcome home.

-Meeting you in person -is even better than I thought -it would make you, -You're fabulous.

-But also, -you've done so many things, -so many more, so many hats.

-You've been an intimacy coach -for film and television.

-You've also created, -like, a workout.

Yes.

-Called the cowgirl workout.

-You have also.

Let's see.

-I've been a pleasure, coach.

-But you also -call yourself a sexologist.

-!And so I'm wondering, you know, -for some of us in this room -who maybe have the -ologist attached to words -!like biologist and sociologist, -!what makes you an expert in sex?

-!pretty much just my dedication -to studying sex across -the spectrum from, -you know, the medical -!and health side to the pleasure -based side.

-Also the spiritual side, -because I'm also a -tantric practitioner.

-And so just my dedication -to really studying -and continuing to stay up -on how sexuality is shifting -because it is fluid.

-And yeah, that that's -what makes me an ologist.

-But I always say that -everyone is an expert -of their own sexuality.

-That's a bar.

-!So back to our episode that we -did together, -!The Myth of the Big Black Penis, -we really talked together -in that episode about the, -!the fetishization of the black -male body, which, like, -dates all the way -back to the auction block.

-Right.

-A big black penis -was seen as a commodity -to sell more bodies, right?

-!The bigger the penis, the more -!brutish, the more animalistic, -!the more viable for procreation.

-And thats all it was.

-!It wasn't necessarily considered -to be a compliment in -presenting a Black man -as a human being.

-Wow, so could you talk to me -a little bit more about why -that episode -was not about a penis at all?

-First of all, -it made me really happy -that we were talking about it -because it's been -rebranded in porn -!and so is BBC a whole category?

-Yeah.

-!Which just further, fantasizes -black men, -but they see it as a prize -because black men -have only really been able -to express their anger, -and so centering -!their penises is a prize to them -because that's all -they've known.

-But to not even understand -the historical context behind -that made me really sad.

-!But it's also it's a compliment.

-Yeah.

You're right.

-It's like this, -this weird insult that's -dressed up as a compliment.

-Like, who doesn't want to say -it's like -a backhanded compliment, -but the average person today -doesn't understand -the historical context of it, -so they can see it as, -oh, you know, I'm a prize -because I have a big -black penis, you know, but -understanding -that this was something -that during enslavement -!was used to sell more black men -into this institution, -but then it was twisted -and turned to use it -as an excuse or a reason -to murder black men, -because they were seen as -!ravenous sexual beasts that just -wanted to ravage white women, -!and then that being prompted by -!the movie A birth of a nation.

-Then, interestingly enough, -this emboldened white people -to say, well, -!we have a right now to kill them -!because we have to put them down -like that, like the savages.

-They are animals.

-They are like the sexual, -the sexual animals.

-Savages -that they are.

Yes.

Yeah.

-And so it's it's interesting -!because it wasn't that long ago.

-And there was never any like, -healing -from that across the board.

-No one ever said, hey, black -!man, let's take you into therapy -so you can heal from this, -you know?

-But it's again, -that violence, it's still -!rebranded, rebranded, rebranded.

-And so I think it's important -to know the past, -important -!to know where this comes from, -but then also -looking towards the future.

-So hopefully collectively -at some point it is an -I am like an idealist, -but I understand there's -so many layers -that have to be moved -through in order -for us to get to the point -of healing it.

-You know, as an entire like, -ethnicity of people.

-But I would hope -!that those who are willing to do -the work can like tap in -and really understand -the historical context -so they can get into -some therapy -to heal around that, -because we as a people talk -about generational curses -and how they're passed down, -but we're not actually -doing the deep dive -into what -those generational curses are -and how -they've manifested in 2025.

-It's a lot.

-It's a lot.

-this conversation with you -brought me -back to my college days when -!I was in a little thrift store.

-You know, -I like to thrift the book -!section for some really, like, -classics in there -that are, like, not in print.

-!And, you know, some banned books -!might be my stumble across one, -if you're lucky.

-!But I remember finding this book -that was it -!was about exactly what you were -talking to me about.

-And before you came here, -I said, -can you please buy this book?

-Should we pull it out?

Yeah.

-All right.

-Where's it go?

Here we go.

-I have a better cover.

Here -we go.

-I cover trash.

-It's called sex and racism -in America.

-!this book is by Calvin C Hinton.

-And he wrote this in 1965.

-And I'm just going to take -a moment.

-And that's why -it was so hard to find.

-We had to find it -used.

We had to find it.

-And all these different -sites were.

-So I thought I was -getting a new copy.

-No, it came all marked up.

-I said, well, okay, cool.

-Yeah.

Somebody marked it up.

-But you, -you said the -!oh my gosh, the parts that this -!person marked were so profound.

-They were literal bars.

-I was like, man, this guy is -spitting in his book.

Yeah.

-Like in 1965, 1965.

-We're both fans.

So.

Yeah.

-!the first thing I thought, like, -you know, when I was like, -can I dig this book back up -was just like 1965, like, -it's got to even up -any ideas about race.

-!How is that going to equate to -2025?

Right.

-We're past so many of these -things.

What's happening?

-!But I would like to talk about -what was happening in 1965.

-One.

A new president, -Lyndon Johnson, was sworn -into office.

-Two The Rat Island -earthquake caused, -destructive tsunami -in Alaska.

-Three -A US Air Force plane -bound for Okinawa crashed -just after takeoff, -killing 85 people on board.

-And all -while all this is happening, -also, MLK is making his 2nd -!March from Selma to Montgomery.

-Trying this again.

-Malcolm X is assassinated -and Jennifer Jackson becomes -the first African-American -Playboy Playmate.

-it's interesting that sex -and sexuality across -races has maintained, -even when all other sectors -were divisive.

-Does it surprise you at all -that sex and racism -have gone -hand in hand over time?

-No, because sexuality is an -!intrinsic part of our humanity.

-So no matter what is going on -in the outside world, -no matter what -we're being presented with, -we still have that -each individually.

-We have that awareness.

-So it doesn't surprise me -that it still exists -in the midst of everything -that the world -is presenting us with.

-And when we take away race -or even ethnic backgrounds, -and we look at ourselves -as human -and we take away -!our differences, it sounds like, -yeah, yeah, -take away those differences -that, -!people choose to use as divisive -because it's a choice.

-We are human -!first, and the human experience -we all can relate to because -for the majority of us, -!we are having the same feelings, -the same experiences.

-!So it doesn't surprise me at all -!that in this time, when people -are fighting for civil -rights, a black Playboy -playmate emerges.

Yep.

-And I honestly irony -that is America.

-All right, -so I want to get your hot -take on a passage -from this book.

-Yeah, if that's cool.

You.

-So, Calvin hurting -was just kind of, -looking into this guy gunner.

-Myrtle, who is, like, -a pretty famous sociologist.

-He was a Swedish sociologist, -and he did this study -where he wanted -to go up to people -and say, in rank order, -what matters most to you -or what do you think is -did you read this part?

-Yeah, -!yeah, yeah, yeah.

So he said in, -the rank order -of discrimination -is what it's called.

-And so when he asked white -Southerners, you know, -what do you think it is -!that black people want the most?

-Again, 1965.

-But before that, right, -this time -it was even previous to that.

-Here's what he got.

-These white -Southerners said this.

-They think that black people -want intermarriage -and sexual intercourse -with whites.

-Number one.

-Number two, social equality -and etiquette, -both tied together.

-Right.

-Because you can't have one -without the other, right?

-Okay.

-Number three, the, -desegregation of public -facilities, -in particular.

Church.

-!For, political enfranchisement.

-You know, -five fair treatment -in the law courts.

-And number six, economic -opportunities.

-Thank you.

-Laughable to me.

It was like, -so this guy, this, -this sociologist, Myrtle, -went and asked black people -the same thing.

Yep.

-And they had exactly -the same things on this list, -but in the opposite order.

-Yep.

Yeah.

-But here's the -kicker is that, like, while -all this is happening, like, -these people were having sex, -black and white people -!were having sex entire slavery -all through the entire time.

-And some of it was love.

-Yes, it was.

-And so I guess -I'm just wondering, like, -what's I know -humanity is a great answer, -but I'm talking -to a sexologist now.

-What's the intrigue -about wanting to date -outside your race?

-!I think it has a lot to do with.

-When you strip away -what we see, -when hearts connect, -when people connect, -that's a powerful thing.

-You don't think it's about -wanting something different -than what you came from.

-Is that intriguing to -there is intrigue there, too, -because, -!when you start to look outside -of, you know, a space -!where you typically would think -you would get love from -and you go to the other side -and you're receiving the care -and the treatment -!and you're actually being seen -and you're -actually being received.

-When you receive that, -it's like, oh, wow.

-!And so all these other feelings -come up, right?

-And then there is boom, -the sexual attraction.

-Because now -!naturally curiosity is arising.

-And sometimes -people like to say, -!oh, what is the taboo of it all?

-But it's like actually -That's very surface level.

-in our minds, -!we're like, oh, we should have -a sexual attraction -to people who look like us.

-And that's really -just a conditioning.

Right.

-But if we step -out of conditioning -and we just ask ourselves -what do we really need -to feel connection -and then we find that -in someone else, -even if they don't -!share a similarity physically.

-We just want to tap in.

-But it's the fears -and all of the learned things -through racism -that stops a lot of people -!from really allowing themselves -to enter into sexual, -situations without guilt, -without the shame.

-And I hate that.

-!I hate that for people because -!sex is supposed to be freeing.

-And when you think about it, -!when you lay down with somebody, -there is no caste system.

-There's no barriers.

-I mean, for goodness sake, -you're naked and all the way -in, all the way is completely -bare, completely transparent.

-And I think that -that is beautiful -when two people -especially -like the skin contrast, -!because I've had white lovers, -you know, so like, -the skin contrast is always -so beautiful to me -because I'm like, look at us -co-mingling in quite a, -you know, I'm a nerd.

-Y'all be thinking about stuff -that I'm like, -!so how do we think about this?

-I don't care, I'm -thinking about it, -!but it's just a beautiful thing.

-And so, -!I think the younger generations -are a little more open -to this, where they are -challenging the things that -!traditionally have been taught -and that are pretty much -!inner woven into the fabric of, -like, American culture.

-!And I'm happy to see that, like, -push back in that rebellion -from the young folks.

Yeah.

-I think a lot about The times -too, right.

-!Like, even if you have that urge -or that love or that desire, -there's also systems.

-Yep.

Right.

-And and it was illegal -to do right -!for a really long time as well.

-So, back to that hierarchy.

-Right of, of discrimination.

-!You know, if the biggest fear is -that we are going to enact -like sexual violence, -!then how does it become possible -to love one another?

-!It's there's a lot of barriers -!there.

So many barriers.

Yeah.

-!And then the upholding of that -by society -if you're getting bombarded -!with this in media consistently, -then it's just drilled -into your consciousness.

-!so I think it sounds like maybe -!you're saying that like it is.

-Obviously it is, -but it is entirely possible -to love one another.

-At our core values, -our base level for our ethos, -all of these things.

Right.

-And maybe I think if history -is teaching us anything, -the best way to do that -is to avoid these stereotypes -and these tropes -!that we have about one another.

-what is happening -inside of heterosexual -relationships, like, -what are the stereotypes -that are getting to us -!I want to hear you name some of -these stereotypes and tropes.

-!I'm going to just put together -some like -people, in a sentence -and hear your reaction.

-White women -!who are interested in black men?

-Oh, that they're like -!the dejected ones from the white -Oh, that they're like -!the dejected ones from the white -Like they, couldn't -!cut it with a with a white man.

-Like they, couldn't -!cut it with a with a white man.

-So they're just -going to the other.

-What about black men who are -interested in white women?

-they want -someone more submissive.

-by black women.

-White men who are interested -in black women, they're just -fetishizing black women.

-!It's just, white guilt and then -wanting to be a white savior.

-Black women -!who are interested in white men.

-the main thing is like, -oh, you're -just doing this for money.

-So you're a gold digger.

-What if he's broke?

-Exactly.

-Because, I mean, come on, -that's the truth, you know?

-I mean, how many, like, sexy, -starving artists are there?

-You know, -you just end up getting -!with them because you're like.

-You're so hot.

-Like, the shape of your -sexual army is like, oh, -!your artistic ability is so hot, -which are pockets are dry.

-You know, my pussy is white.

-Like, you know, I'm.

-I'm dead.

-Happy Valentine's Day.

-Just being honest.

-You know?

-what are the societal issues -that are, getting to us?

-we're not going to therapy.

-When I go to therapy, -!why aren't we going to therapy?

-!Because in our communities, it's -not seen as something that's -accessible to us or something -that we really need -and or trust or trust.

-The that's -the main thing is trust, -!because it is in therapy where -!I learned emotional regulation, -emotional intelligence, like -and so I'm blessed to -have had those tools -given to me -by a therapist -and by my friends -who are therapists -who happen -to be black women as well.

-So I think sometimes -social circles.

-Do you know -if you have a social circle -!where people are doing the work -just naturally -and having conversations?

-Friends who love each other -are going to check each other -and say, hey, -listen, -let me give you this because -!you're really struggling, right?

-And then -support them through that.

-You heard -you heard it here today.

-how do you encourage people -to be very brave -in talking about race -with one another?

-!First of all, setting the space -that, we're going to respect -each other.

-We're not going to over -!talk, we're not going to shout, -and we're going to listen -and not judge, -which is a trend on TikTok.

-We listen and we don't judge.

-Right.

-And easier said than it -is, we're.

-Yeah, but it requires -mindfulness though.

-Because in mindfulness, -what we're doing is -we are stating what we are -feeling internally, -and we are making a choice -to not let the intrusive -thoughts or the knee -jerk reaction -be the thing that comes out.

-So in being able to practice -mindfulness, it's -!sitting with what you're feeling -still, being able to listen -and hear -what that person is saying.

-And also the major part of -this, don't take it personal.

-Because -when you take it personally, -then you become defensive -and now you're not listening -anymore.

-Now you're not actually -holding space anymore.

-Now you just ready -to get your leg back.

-So you just entirely.

-!I'm ready to go, you know?

Yeah.

-But that definitely requires -patience -!and understanding and empathy, -which a lot of people, -!when it comes to race relations, -don't have empathy, -!because with all of the violence -and all of the hate -and the vitriol -that exists from people, -who don't look like us, it's -hard for someone to say, -I can still hold loving space -!for you and compassionate space -for you.

-So the only way we're -able to sit down -!and have these conversations is, -for a moment -to, like, play, make believe, -!go back to like, being a child -and using your imagination -and say, let's imagine -that none of this exists -with this person.

-you ready to put that -to the test?

-Absolutely.

All right.

-You ready to put that -to the test out here?

-All right, all right.

-So, It's -time for some speed dating.

-We need to understand -what being white -has done for us and to us.

-!you have all these distinctions -of human beings, -but it's a social construct -of race, like sex, gender.

-We have identify culture, -nationality, ethnicity, etc.

-but if you focus on -!where your care is for a person -in the moment -and what the need -is currently speaking -!to this kind of like a universal -equalizer and like meeting -the needs of human beings -where we are.

-if you take a person -for who they are -!sitting right in front of you, -right, -it's like, -forget about their ancestors.

-The person is sitting right -in front of you.

-This person has done -absolutely nothing to you, -right?

-But because of their -!the color of their skin, you're -making an assumption, right?

-And we do know, like -racism is an intrinsic part -of the American way.

-Right?

So there are internal -!biases that we're all holding.

-But if you can just -look at that person -!as they are right then and there -and they are right, I'm -just going to accept this for -what it is and hear them out.

-And having the willingness -to do that, -then we can get somewhere.

-But again, -emotional intelligence, -emotional regulation -and mindfulness three tools -that can help -!these conversations move forward -that the average person -across the spectrum, -!no matter what ethnicity or race -that they belong to, -doesn't have.

-Like we -need this to be -!like public health requirement.

-Like we need emotional -regulation -!and emotional intelligence to be -something that it's like just -I learned our ABCs.

-We learned that too, -!because it changes everything.

-It really does.

-It sure does.

-!Thanks so much for joining us.

-If you want to continue -!to be a part of the homegoings -family, stay in touch -at homegoings.co -and subscribe -to the homegoings podcast -wherever -you listen.

Take good care.