-One day it all makes sense.

-That's what my elders said.

-This music we call -jazz took its original shape -in the late 19th century.

-And is widely associated -with the Congo Square -In New Orleans, Louisiana.

-!History tells us that enslaved -people would gather -!at the square and mix together -sounds of West African -and Caribbean music, -church hymns, field chants, -brass instruments, et voila!

-Jazz was born.

-Ive been told a lie.

-But since jazz rose to fame, -the genre has birthed -many more children.

-Never given me nothing.

-Move, move, move.

-I'm just trying to say -something.

-Soul, ragtime, -the blues, the list goes on.

-!Which begs the question today, -what is jazz?

-And who gets to call -themselves a jazz musician?

-Authentic -jazz, is in the blood.

-It's in the roots.

-The foreign sounds, -the sounds of the Caribbean, -the Latin jazz influences, -the African rhythms -and its influenced -!anyone that makes music today, -jazz is in hip hop, -Jazz is in R&B.

-Jazz is in funk.

-It's about pushing forward.

-It's about honoring -the evolution of the art form -or of any art form, but -you know, you -have room for everybody.

-From Vermont Public -this is Homegoings.

-I'm Myra Flynn.

-Today on the show, -a conversation -with three musicians -!about navigating today's world -of jazz on their own terms.

-Get your hands ready -to give a round of applause -for Melanie Charles, -Nicole "Lady Wray -and jazz -festival curator Adi Oasis!

-We're a proud member -of the NPR network.

-Welcome home.

-Welcome to homegoings.

-Thanks so much for -being a part of this, ladies.

-I feel so lucky.

-You all are here -for the Burlington Discover -Jazz Festival, but -I get to, like, -make a show with you all -just because you're here -at this one place -at the same time.

-This show was kind of -brought to me as like, -we can have a conversation -about Black women in jazz, -but I'm kind of like, -what does that mean?

-Like, what does jazz mean?

-So I did a little research -on all y'all.

-I mean, you've been like in -!this game in the hip hop game, -you look like ODB, Missy -Elliott, Rockefeller -records, right?

Since 1998.

-Yes.

Right.

Yes.

-And then came out with -your own stuff, right?

Yes.

-And totally like, -not synonymous with the word -jazz, I would say.

-Whereas like Melanie, -for instance, I'm like, -you are, you know, a jazz -laureate of sorts.

-You've gone to school for it.

-And I do know, you know, -I was a classical musician, -that the people who are -in the classical world -and people who are in -the jazz world have a very -!staunch idea sometimes of what -jazz is.

-And then, Adi, -you are like a hybrid -of all these different -beautiful sounds.

-I'd say, -!from like rock to funk to soul -and yet you've played -the Montreal Jazz Festival, -which is one of the biggest -jazz festivals in the world.

-So I think, like, -I want to start with like, -!what is jazz and how do we all -touch it or not touch it?

-And what's it turning into?

-Well, right now -in jazz, there's -this kind of like controversy -where a lot of jazz musicians -are rejecting the term jazz, -and they're interested -in using the term -B.A.M., which is short for -Black American music.

-Which is complicated -because during the evolution -!of jazz music, it is all about -the foreign sounds, the -the sounds of the Caribbean, -the Latin jazz influences, -the African rhythms is -what makes jazz jazz.

-But what has evolved?

-The sound -has been on American soil.

-So I understand the idea and -it also opens up the sound.

-I think people - some people -!are trying to develop the sound -and incorporate technology -I Herbie Hancock -was like a jazz musician -that was all about -pushing the sound forward -and incorporating technology.

-Miles Davis.

-These people are considered -classic jazz musicians, -but within that -classic-ness of them, -they were always like, on to -what's next?

-And so it gets complicated -because the musicians -are trying to find things, -but the people -who make decisions, -want to hold on to that, -!to a certain era of the music.

-!So, it's a little complicated, -but I think that that's -when, like, really juicy -things happen.

-What is with wanting to -hold on to it so fiercely -and so tightly?

-Why, who is it?

-Is is B.A.M.

displacing -anything?

No B.A.M.

-I mean, B.A.M.

-is trying to say -we are more than than this -jazz thing.

-But believe that jazz is -universal.

-It's global.

-And I think that once -we try to change -the name of this thing, -we're cutting off -certain people.

-Yeah.

Amen.

-So I think it sounds like -!as inclusive as we want to be, -Adi, like, curious -what jazz means for you?

-I mean, especially curating -a jazz festival and - -!Yeah, what's changing about it -or what isn't?

-I mean, the way I look at -it is -jazz is like -our great grandmother, -and then we are -all children of it.

-And its influenced -anyone that makes like music -today that has, like, chords.

-Right?

-It's evolved with the time -and it's jazz is in hip hop.

-!You know, hip hop was sampling -jazz so much.

-Jazz is in R&B.

-Jazz is in funk.

-Jazz is in disco.

-Whenever you have horns, -a horn line that's playing -something in -time, its jazz to me.

-So it's it is present -in so many forms of of music -today.

-it's about pushing forward.

-It's about honoring -the evolution of the art form -or of any art form, -bringing in technology, -bringing in -different types -of instrumentations.

-But, you know, it's -you have room for everybody.

-Yeah, it's it's -an interesting thing -just in any, change, right?

-To like both push forward -while also preserve.

-That's right.

-That's a really hard balance.

-I feel like you -!you end up pissing someone off -along the way, like, -That's how you know -you're doing something right!

-Because we remember, like, -when John Coltrane.

-Yeah, -when John Coltrane -was entering into his, -like, free jazz, spiritual -jazz stuff.

-People -!were walking out of his shows, -you know, now we're listening -back to those records like, -oh my gosh, -this is so progressive.

-But same with Miles -Davis later work.

-People were like, you know.

-Yeah.

When he was rapping.

-Yeah, he was.

-If somebody is pissed, -if somebody is pissed off -then something is happening.

-Change comes from discomfort.

-You have to get through -discomfort -to change something.

-!Otherwise you spend the day on -the couch watching TV, right?

-<applause> -Nicole, I'm so -curious to hear from you.

-Speaking of rap artists, -ODB and the people that -youve played with.

-I'm going to keep it -short and sweet.

-I'm definitely going -to piggyback off of Adi -because I didn't go to school -for jazz.

-And like you -said, I did come from the hip -hop world like Missy Elliott.

-I like -I was talking backstage.

-I'm a big fan of Lauryn Hill.

-And to see her, the rap -in the R&B and the blues -and the jazz and all of that.

-But to piggyback off of you -is definitely our ancestors.

-And it's is is in the blood.

-It's in the roots, -you know what I mean?

-So it definitely has evolved.

-I feel like I'm the new.

-And in between -mixing all of that and above, -but I will give it back to -the ancestors.

-Is in our blood, -is rooted and grounded.

-You, I think, like, -have the OG career -of the careers up here.

-How long have you been -making music?

-I would say its -20 plus years.

-20 plus years in the -in the business.

-I started with Missy Elliott -and Timbaland -back in Virginia.

-That's where I was raised, -I went from Missy Elliott -to a hip hop label, -Roc-A-Fella records.

-Can't stop, Won't stop, -can't stop, -won't stop with all male, -all male, -all male record label.

-It was Jay-Z.

-I think it was, Philly Boys.

-It was Benny Siegel.

-It was a lot of - -It was nothing -but guys, I just felt like -the only female -there trying to push my way.

-I was working hard, like -they used to call me -like a lab rat, -because I was always -in the studio writing, -I was young, -but I had a lot of ideas -I got started -in the music industry.

-I was, 16, about to turn 17.

-And Missy Elliott, -she had a record label.

-She was about to embark -on her career, -and she took little -old me with her.

-And my mom was like, -make sure you watch her -and watch her good, -because she's a kid, -and I want to make sure that -she's going to be protected, -which I will say, -she did back off -a lot of people off of me, -you know, in the industry, -being a young Black girl, -!getting started, naive, young.

-The entertainment industry -definitely fetishizes youth -and I was very protected -coming up when I was younger.

-!My mom was in every rehearsal, -every studio session -with me.

-So in that regard, -I'm grateful -I was protected in that way.

-However, three years ago, -I was signed to a major -jazz label.

-And once I released my album, -it was called - "Y'all Don't Really Care -About Black Women -That was the name of it.

Yes.

-Talk about straight forward.

-And I built my own coffin -by naming the album that.

-But it's -okay well, it's not okay, but -they signed -on a younger vocalist, -an incredible vocalist -that had just, like, -taken the world by storm.

-And I quickly realized -that I was getting aged out -and they -they dropped me and invested -all of their money -on this newer, -younger artist.

-And up to that point, -I never was really, I didn't -I'm 36 years old, like, -I don't I ain't that old.

-But I have already felt -the feeling of like, -you're not that fresh -new thing anymore.

-!And that's a really hard thing -to encounter -and to pick up again -!and continue in this industry.

-I had the same situation -happen in my career -with the Missy -Elliott situation.

-I feel like she was taking on -a lot of other artists -at the time, -she was a big name -and she couldn't juggle -all the artists.

-I felt like she -she needed a team to juggle -all the artists -that she was working with.

-And I kind of got -pushed behind.

-And because I got pushed -behind, like, it's -just so start -feeling bad for myself.

-And I was hearing all these -things that you're Black, -you're you're short, -you're not like a star.

-They're looking for high -yellow, -light skinned white girls.

-And that's what I was - -Colorism is real.

-those are the things -that I was hearing -as a young Black girl -coming into the industry -that I was not, I was not, -I was not a star.

-I wasn't the color -that I needed to be.

-My voice wasn't big enough.

-And look at you today, -and I just want to, like, -give you, like, -a little, like, you -know, hug because I felt, -I feel what you just said, -and I feel like you deserve -a round of warm -applause and a big hug -because that was difficult, -what you went through.

-And it's not fair.

-And it's makes me emotional -because she's so talented.

-But you're here -telling this story, -and then you hear -you went through -what she went through -and look at you today -and that's where -you're going to be girl -like, don't give up like, -I was in the -band for a long time, -and I was -frustrated in the studio -because -they weren't -letting me write.

Like, -And it goes back to even -earlier when I was like 18, -19, I moved to New York -and 19 years old, -and I wanted to write -my songs, and I, -!I had that experience of like, -oh, the older producer would -like, noticed me and like, -you know, -I was going to be a star.

-!He was going to get me signed.

-I thought it was get -going to get signed, -like maybe four times.

-I got like, EP's recorded -by this so-and-so, -big producers.

-I don't need to say -names and like, -!and either they dropped me and -disappeared or they gave me - -I remember -!being 20 and handed a contract -and I'm like, -English is my third language.

-And I looked at that contract -myself.

-I was like, -are you kidding me?

-Like, you own my likeness -for a lifetime.

-Are you kidding me?

-People are good at making -you feel like -you're not good enough.

-And it can be or -not intentional.

-But for a long time I thought -I was not good enough -as a writer.

-I thought it wasn't good -enough as a singer -or as a bass player.

-And I wasted so much time -thinking that my ideas -were not good enough, -because I was in a studio -with some dudes -that were so controlling -and kept saying that my ideas -were not good enough.

-Or like, yeah, maybe not.

-You know what?

-I had to look in a mirror -so many times -and after going home -and thought like, -!I guess I'm not a good writer.

-I guess I don't know what -I'm doing, I guess I don't.

-My voice is not good enough.

-Thats, that's insane!

-One day I realized I -was like, wait, -I can do it myself.

-And that's -when everything changed -for me.

-À mon tour -Like red to violet, move -And I'll take the -pilot seat, you -Ain't never given -me nothing, move -I'm just tryna -say something -Im Tired, tired, tired -to try, try, try -No denyin', you don't -have to love me -Youre livin' out your lies, -youd rather fantasize -Let's stop pretending -That you don't really -need me, move -Red to violet, move -And I'll take the -pilot seat, you -Ain't never given -me nothing, move -I'm just tryna -say something -Give me my position -Why your legs so wide -in the seat?

-Why you love taking -space from me?

-Does it boost your -self-esteem?

-That's sad to me, you need -to hand over all the keys -I'm done with -people pleasin' -I'm learnin' to state -my needs -Like red to violet, move -And I'll take the -pilot seat, you -Ain't never given -me nothing, move -I'm just tryna -say something -Magicians on a mission -We cookin' -We make your sh** better -We hold it -We keep it together -You know now -it's our turn -Thank you.

-<applause> -Thanks, James.

-Thank you so much.

-One of the things -we've been talking about -as a collective and -also on homegoings is -just how much -the consumer knows truly -about what goes on behind -the making of music today -and how it used to operate -and how it operates now.

-People used to consume music -by buying CDs, right?

-So you used to go buy -an album, -and it was about, -what, $15?

$15.99?

-Think about that -when you sold a million.

-That's a lot of money, right?

-How much have you been -spending on music lately?

-Not to make you feel bad, -but let's just -think for one second.

-How much have you been -spending, to consume music?

-But don't you consume -even more music?

-And don't -you have an even more wide -range of music that you can -listen to all day long?

-And how much -do we spend?

$10 a month.

-But we're -still making the music.

-And how do we get paid?

-No one knows.

-Oh, I don't know either.

-Crickets.

Crickets.

-What was the last amount -from Spotify?

-What did that -check look like?

-So basically and -and I would have to get fact -checked here, but, the last -I checked, Spotify pays -.004 per stream.

-So when you have a million -streams, that generates -about $4,000.

-!Half of it goes to your label.

-And then the rest.

-So you only take 50% if -!you have a deal, a label deal, -and then that 50% -and then split -between -all the people who write.

-So for -about a million streams, -I guess you write your music.

-I write my music.

-But we don't write it all -by ourselves.

-So we get about maybe $800, -maybe, -I have a lot of peers -that went to music school -that are like -driving Uber.

-Everyones suffering, the -whole - we're in a recession.

-Ain't no money, -period.

-There is money.

-They're just not giving it -to us.

-Oh, yes.

-This is a form of -slavery, too.

-There there is money.

-Those DSPs, -they do make money.

-Actually, -the music industry -is making more money today -than it ever did before -because more music -is being released.

-!There's so much - there's hasn't -been that much music -being released on a daily -basis ever before.

-So there is the money.

-They're just not giving it -to us.

-Ticketmaster -needs to come down, -and they need to stop -!taking such a giant percentage -from our ticket sales.

-Do you know, I calculated -about how much - I sold -I sold out -a venue in Paris that I was -dreaming of playing.

-It was 1400 people.

-I looked at the audience and -!I was like, wow, I'm at a loss -on this -tour, a full theater.

I -!personally walk out with about -6% of the price of a ticket -I understand -everybody needs to get paid, -but why is the artist -the person that gets paid -the least?

-Besides policy, right, which -obviously needs to change.

-And it sounds like -there needs -to be some laws in place -so that this can no longer, -you know, we can no longer be -taken advantage of -in these ways.

-How can people who directly -support you best support you?

-I meet a lot of people -that have just -discovered my music -because they told a friend -or cousin or someone, -I think just word of mouth -and just getting out there -because a lot of people -have been asking for this one -particular album -that I worked on many years -ago, it's called -Electric Blue, -and I keep telling them, -you guys need to reach out -to Missy Elliott, not me.

-!So because like, I don't know, -I don't own the music.

-So you -if you -if you're reaching out to me -and my DMs -reach out to her in her DMs -and spread the word.

-If it's something that you -want, spread the word.

-I mean, so many platforms, -it's so easy now.

-Back in the day, -it wasn't easy to just -just go into someone's -DM and ask a question.

-If you want to respond, -!you can respond if you don't - -So you just got -to use your own vocal - -But but how does spreading -the word -translate to money -in your pockets?

-You okay, so there are -specific things you can do.

-Buying the merch, -so going to the shows -because touring is really our -best chance of income.

Going -to the shows is huge for us.

-And then when you -!go to the shows, if you happen -because everybody's -struggling, -not just us, let's be real.

-If you do happen -to have an extra 30 bucks, -hop on the -merch table and buy a t shirt -or a vinyl that makes a big, -big difference for us.

-I don't think DSPs should go.

-They they do a lot -for us to be able to like, -you know, -get rid of the middleman.

-But the way that -the music, the, the money, -the funds are redistributed -should be rethought -and, and reorganized.

-We all stream certain -different types of artists, -but your money, your $10 -is distributed the same for -everybody that consumes it.

-So if - I stream -the hell out of your music, -my $10, like a percentage of -it should go to you -instead of going -to Taylor Swift or Beyonce.

-The top still gets -a bigger percentage.

-Right and don't forget, -we have labels, -which you were speaking about -too, like that -then come in -!and take a percentage of that.

-So multiple -art forms have been -beat up in this same way, -right?

-So, TV and film got -Netflixed, -you know, -photography got Instagrammed.

-But music was -like the first.

-And we started -with like Napster, -we started -with all these things.

-And what I can't get past -is how much in this world -!and especially in this country -from the tourism board from, -our tax advantages, -how much we still value -and depend on -and ask for music to be made.

-But somehow we became the -guinea pig for it being free.

-Why do you think music?

-I don't know, -that's a tough question.

-I do know you're right.

-We all need music.

-It's part of everything -that we do.

-!Family engagement, church, TV.

-!Sure, the Napster thing really -kind of messed us all up, -and it does trickle down -!to all different forms of art.

-I believe, like even in like -musical theater or dance, -!now people are posting TikToks -dancing because there are -very few opportunities -for people to dance and -and do their thing.

-I like to study the history -and evolution -of like these things.

-That's why I reference -a lot of the OGs, -cause I'm like, -!how did they get through this?

-What happened there?

-!I think a lot about patronage, -like earlier, -like medieval days and how, -like the churches were -the ones that were funding -the survival of musicians.

-And I think that we have to -look at it in different ways, -like how are we going -to survive -at the end of the day, -I don't want to put pressure -on my music to survive.

-That's not fair, -And that's why -you see a lot of musicians -just quit and disappear -and just, like, -throw their hands up -and are like, -I'm just going -to go do something else.

-I want my money back -I've been sold a lie -I did what I was told -And never questioned why -They said learn it all keys -Transcribe them as a beat -One day it all makes sense -That's what my elders said -But for what, for who?

-No one cares, Sing the blues -All the time, all the tears -Jazz school -For what, for who?

-No one cares, Sing the blues -All the time, all the tears -Jazz school -I want my money back -I've been sold a lie -Who cares if -I can swing?

-Or if I can't keep time?

-All the accolades -They barely pay my way -Now the times have changed -The shed was all in vain -And for what, -for who?

-No one cares, -sing the blues -All the time, -all the tears -Jazz school -For what, for who?

-No one cares, -sing the blues -All the time, -all the tears -Jazz school -I want my money back -<applause> -I have to apologize.

-I feel like -I've been so skeptical -and dark during this panel, -but that's just where I am -in this moment in my life as -an artist - and -Don't apologize.

-Well, you know.

Sure.

-Thank you.

-Basically, -this song is really.

-I'm lamenting of all the -crap that has -come out of believing that -if I went to jazz school, -if I was a good student, -that I would live a -comfortable, successful life.

-You just never know -what somebody goes through -is going through.

-So just it's important -!to always have grace and just, -you know, applaud -people for showing up.

-<applause> -Thanks so much for -joining us.

-If you want to continue -to be a part of the -Homegoings family, -stay in touch at -homegoings.co -and subscribe to the -homegoings podcast -wherever you listen.

-Take good care.