- Hello and welcome.

I am Al Martin hosts of Current Sports on 105.1 FM and your sports reporter on the WKAR news team.

Now I'm glad you could join us tonight for this special, very special sneak peek at the upcoming documentary series, "Muhammad Ali" by Ken Burns, Sarah Burns and David McMannon.

Now the complete eight hour series runs for four nights starting this Sunday, September 19th, at 8:00 PM on WKAR TV.

And all eight hours will be available for streaming free.

We love that word, F-R-E-E.

In the PBS app at that time.

Now we also hope you enjoyed the WKAR special Crown Boxing, a fighting chance.

It was a great time being out there and bringing that to you guys as well.

Now, before we get started with the discussion, I have a few quick housekeeping notes.

Events like this from WKAR are made possible with support from people like you.

Thank you to those who have donated to WKAR.

And if you are not a WKAR donor yet, you can do so at the donate to WKAR link on this page, or just simply call 517-884-4700.

Now for tonight's discussion, let's get to it.

And again, you guys can enter your questions for our panelists into the comment box, and I will put them, I will pose them to the panelists as time allows.

But right now it's my pleasure to introduce our panel for tonight.

I wanna let you guys know that we have with us, Amanda Brundage, MMA Fighter from right here in Lansing, Michigan.

Ron DeLeon, boxing and MMA Fight promoter.

Bob Every former boxer and executive director of the greater Lansing area, Sports Hall of Fame.

And last but not least, Leps Malete, who is an MSU professor of kinesiology.

First of all, thank you all so much for taking the time out of your busy week to join us here on this Thursday to talk about this amazing documentary series.

Now, we all just saw a sampling from the upcoming doc series.

Again, which air Sunday night.

I just wanna go around real quick, guys.

What are your first impressions of what you saw?

I wanna start with with Ron.

- I love the fact that they showed behind the scenes.

As I mentioned, a lot of the fighters all the time, it's like a fighter's life is not what people think it is.

There's so much that goes into the hard work and sacrifice that doesn't get seen by the public.

They see Amanda doing her thing out there in the ring or the cage.

They don't know what it took to get there.

So behind the scenes is everything.

Show somebody the sacrifices these fighters make, and it's so admirable to see them do that at that level as well.

So, yes very nice.

- Seeing that human aspect to Ali, Ron is always very cool.

Definitely.

What about you, Leps?

What about you?

What was the most compelling part of what about what you just saw?

- It is the beginning that it's actually the most amazing thing for me.

For instance, looking at Ali at a young age as a clumsy boxer, and just the saying that you take a path that you take a turn you don't know where it's gonna take you.

And then boom you become the greatest boxer of all time.

And again, what is so amazing about the whole thing is Ali was never born a boxer, but it was inside him that actually made him the great person that he is.

So it was what is inside him that actually pushed him all the way through becoming this great personality, this highly imposing individual.

So I think it was a real amazing story from that point of view.

- Very, very good take there.

What about you, Amanda?

- I'm gonna go off of what Ron said, just being a fighter myself, kinda when I was getting in the sport real big, I would research all the greatest people, Muhammad Ali, one of them.

And I would look at what he was doing, what he was saying, all these great fighters.

I would look at like how they were as humans.

How did they eat their salad?

Like what food did they use?

Like I'm serious everything.

So being able to see yes, the human side of him and learn a little bit more about who he was as a person is if for fighters coming up in the sport or just anyone that has any motivation at all, or passion it's awesome to see just the entire career of him and who he was.

- Truly, truly remarkable, Amanda.

And do we have Bob Every?

Is Bob there?

Bob?

Okay, we'll come back to Bob.

I wanna roll right into our next question though.

I wanna go around and ask you guys what, 'cause I think everybody has a different version of this, a different answer to this question.

What makes Muhammad Ali such a compelling figure?

And why do you think he remains relevant today as much as he did back in the day?

There's so many ways you can go with that.

I'll start with Leps this time.

- You have in Ali an embodiment of what you might call an activist athlete who not only used his sport to shine and show his capacity for confidence, for growth as an individual.

And as well as a lightening rod for everything that is about life in itself.

But what you see in Ali is an individual who becomes a vehicle or a conduit for something greater than life itself.

So he inspired many young people in communities across the nation.

He became an international figure through his activism in sport.

He actually looked like he was the story, but he never wanted it to be the story per se, because his interest was in being the message of social justice, message for peace, message for those who are voiceless.

And as an African, I truly got inspired by Ali from this point of view, because I can make the link between Ali's history and how he used his voice to impact the liberation movement in Africa.

And most of the African countries.

Here is a young man who grows to be the greatest boxer of all times.

He comes a message of liberation in Africa.

Particularly if you think about the fact that people like Nelson Mandela have talked about how Ali was an inspiration to them.

So he says, I'm the greatest.

He says all these things, but when you think about it, you realize the message is not to draw people to him, but rather to him as the messenger, is remarkable.

- It truly is.

What about you, Amanda?

What sticks out to you?

What makes him such a compelling figure today just as much as yesterday?

- Well, I'm young.

I mean and not young, but no, I'm young.

And so I grew up only knowing him as a boxer and then you get older and you're like understanding his, how the impact of his draft refusal like changed so much.

The refusal of the draft and it's the way he talked to his opponents and the rhyming, the way he got in people's heads, like me as an athlete watching that is something that I can see in a lot of fighters today.

And he's the one that started it.

So when I see the way he started this just getting in fighters heads and talking and being funny, and loud and obnoxious that was not really common back then.

And now I'm watching fighters do it today.

And it's so relevant to like that was Muhammad Ali.

He started it.

Everyone is kind of taking that that persona that he had and thinking that, well, he was successful.

So I might be successful in that.

It's not mine, I don't like to do it.

I don't like conflict too much, but it is really cool.

- Well, that was my next followup, Amanda, are you that type of fighter to throw some verbal jabs before the fight.

You gotta sell the fight.

Ali was really the first to do that.

And it's such a good point.

- I've been known to kind of create hype, I guess, as the fights get closer for my own sake.

I definitely I don't like to talk bad or like anything.

I'm very respectful in the sport.

I respect anyone that steps across the cage for me.

So no, but I do have to kind of get into like a little bit of excitement and hype, the closer, like I get in my opponent's face that way and just not really to like intimidate them.

But mainly just to, for me to get like I'm in a fight.

Like I got to get ready a little bit.

- I love it.

Ron, what about you, my man?

Ali being the compelling figure that he is in and was of course back in the day.

- I feel he is courage, strength, power, poetry, and motion personified.

So charismatic, so larger than life.

He's one of those guys that I watched a million fights and I watched the one fight when Tommy Hearns fudge Marvin Hagler.

And they said, it's so cool to see two fighters, the type of their game, that are willing to risk everything to gain everything.

Well, Mohammad did that at a totally different level because he was really willing to risk his career, standing up for what he believed in.

And then nobody was doing that at those times.

He was the face of a generation.

he said what everybody thought, he had the courage to do it.

And like I said, risking everything to gain that those are three of the most profitable years.

It could have been of his career and he lost those for what he believed in.

And that's so powerful.

And as far as fighting for equality, I mean we're 50 years later and nothing's changed.

So I feel that's why he is still relevant because his message is still being heard.

As Amanda mentioned, he inspires to this day not only fighters, but that belief and follow up what you believe in, stand up for what you believe in.

And that's 'cause that's everything.

- Later on, I'm gonna double back to that point you just made, Ron because I wanna piggyback off of that later on, but I wanna ask right now though how the understanding on Ali has changed over time.

Because Leps, I think you made an interesting point because I learned about Ali through my grandfather.

And he always told me that during that time when Ali was being outspoken and speaking up for what he believed in, there weren't a lot of people at the time that agreed with him.

He was going against the grain at that time.

It wasn't until years go on and history looks back where we look at Ali and say, wow, that took a lot of courage and we admire him so much for it.

How has that changed over time and why has it changed over time?

Leps?

- I mean, that's a tough question.

But I can say this.

I have seen and read a little bit about some of the luminary figures.

Think about Dr. King, think about Nelson Mandela.

And think about how, for instance, Nelson Mandela and his compatriots at the time during deliberation struggle in South Africa were advocating peace but they were labeled terrorists.

And so now it's not only in 1988, for instance, they could now come into the United States free.

I'm just giving an example of this.

And then you look at a figure like Muhammad Ali and you think Ali was seen as a polarizing figure at the time, because he was saying things that were unpopular.

The general public had had a perception of what is right and what is okay, because at the time.

We're not dealing with, for instance, social justice issues that are current now, that are very problematic in a manner that they are in the public eye we can see them.

And I think about here of the case of what happened with George Floyd.

You think about man, if this happened maybe in the '60s as an example, or maybe 20 years ago, what would have happened?

So there is a factor around time as time moves and how luminary figures they have to be seen differently depending on the time at which things are happening.

So when you revisit these issues, they look as bad as you can imagine.

And doesn't mean that a lot has changed in that area for some people, and some sections of the society.

But overall, what we are getting to appreciate is that the times are moving forward.

And there are some things are changing in a rapid way because of awareness about social justice issues.

And therefore the relevance of Ali has become much, even much bigger in the latter part of the 20th century.

And especially a few years before his death and in 2016.

And now it's a moment of reckoning for all of us.

So the revisioning or revisiting of these issues becomes even much more powerful now.

- So many good points there.

Ron, can you speak to it how Ali's the understanding of him has changed over time from you being a fight promoter 'cause Ali, again, what Amanda was saying.

I mean, how outspoken he was and talking trash, and selling a fight.

From a promoting standpoint, how has Ali been looked at over time till now?

- I mean, that's a promoter's dream actually to have some of that controversial.

Because there are people that are fans are gonna support him.

Then the other half is gonna go pay to see him get knocked out.

So either way he's selling his tickets that's what the promoter wants to fill the seats.

But I think as history has shown, history has always softened as we've gone.

The hardened, hate, bigotry that was going on during that time.

Not that it has changed much now, but the fact that it was so blatant, so obvious that now when they see God, he was right about this, he was right about that.

It just totally softened the whole view.

That's why he's so viewed so much differently now than he was.

He was hated.

He went from being hated to the one of the must be loved, not athletes, human beings in the history of the world.

And that's just the perception of time softens up and everything.

But he's the promoter's dream.

We're where we wanna go out there.

When we put on an event, it's normally just one fight poster and it's two guys, the main event.

Now we put everybody in the poster 'cause they can all sell their points.

They can all get their crew there.

There are people in there.

And Ali basically did that by himself.

And did that charisma along with the negativity that goes along with it.

Like they say half as many people paid for the tickets just to see him get beat.

And the promoter didn't care as long as seats are being filled, it's all that mattered.

- That is so true.

Amanda, from a fighter's perspective, how has the understanding of who Ali was in the ring changed over time?

- Well, in the ring, I mean.

I think that he is so great because of the time that he came up.

If he were to come up now, we would just be another face.

Like trying to show off, or maybe, I don't know, 'cause I wasn't alive during Muhammad Ali from when I'm gathering, it's just like when I'm watching, when I think about him changing the sport.

It wouldn't really show today.

He changed not only the sport, but like I'm going to go back to like the refusal of the draft.

Like he was hated.

He was hated by a lot of people.

I mean, obviously to a lot of black Americans, he was inspirational as to any, like, he was inspiring a lot, but in the ring, I'm very thankful that he was there was his time then.

And not now because his voice shown this shows all a lot higher, reaches a lot more people.

Now looking back at it you like, you mentioned that we look at it today and we're all inspired, but back then we might we were like, oh, he's hated.

He refused this.

He's not an American, we don't like him.

I think like, I've read that journalists were getting bomb threats because they were publishing things about him.

And that's crazy.

Today, I don't know if his story would have impacted so many lives.

- Very, very true.

And for those watching, thank you so much.

And we're getting some questions that are coming in and I'm monitoring them on the side here.

I actually wanna go to one of those questions right now, guys, if you don't mind.

But Shannon is watching you all beautiful people.

And she has this question.

Muhammad Ali was a masterful communicator.

Even people who didn't agree with his politics respected his willingness to listen and engage.

What role did his being a black man help/hurt his ability to deliver his message?

That's a question with a lot of different layers there.

Leps, you wanna tackle that one first?

- One of the most interesting discussions I had with one of my class last night, on Tuesday night was this whole thing called the imposter syndrome, which actually typically affects males and females, male blacks, female blacks, and women overall.

I don't know whether it's real or not, but the issue about it is that whether when you are a black person, especially a black men in a white majority environment, you don't feel capable enough.

You don't feel valued enough such that you're always doubting yourself.

Ali didn't have that.

He was such an inspirational figure in the sense that for a black man at the time to be able to stand up and say what he believes without even pausing to think about whatever you want.

I mean, when you look at the clip where he's saying, you can shoot me or whatever, and I'll do whatever I feel free, I feel liberated.

You're like, oh my goodness, this is just amazing.

Because we all think about what is there to lose?

What does it mean?

How do I fit in?

The challenge of the black man and women in society where they are the minority is always wanting to fit in.

And that is the same issue that you have to think about the activist athletes today.

And they're trying to be something other than just the athletes.

They want to express themselves to be heard.

Because I think here I am, I have this role in society to be able to convey the voices of the voiceless and represent that which are considered injustice in society and not just to play.

And Muhammad Ali did that with so much strength.

And of course, others have come before him like Jesse Owens with the the Belgium games in 1963.

Robinson also did that with the Dodgers.

So these are inspirational individuals who were able to stand up, even in a context where it is very difficult for the average ordinary black man to function and communicate.

- So many great points there.

I love how you brought up Jesse Owens and Jackie Robinson.

And it's so relevant today because we're seeing more and more athletes today willing to speak up and they speak up for what they believe in.

And they always referenced the athletes of the past, like, of course, Muhammad Ali and the Jim Browns, the Kareem Abdul-Jabbars and so on and so forth.

We've seen it with LeBron James, and Megan Rapino so many.

So Amanda, for you, do you feel.

When you, when you're out there fighting and something happens in our world, do you feel a responsibility to speak up or are you just like, no I'm a fighter and that's what I do.

- It's tough because I feel like until you have a voice like Mohammed Ali at the top of like your sport, your voice isn't heard until you're Conor McGregor, until you're a Ronda Rousey, until you're at the highest level, like Claressa Shields, she has a voice right now.

Like this is the girl that should be standing up for.

And I have seen her stand up and speak and say things like, for me, I feel like until I'm at that level where my voice and what I have to say can impact so many people.

And it goes the other way too, because they have a voice doesn't mean they have to say things.

And what they say has to be thought out and right.

So many young girls look up to me and look up to people like Claressa Shields.

And I'm sure, Muhammad Ali was, everyone was looking at him.

You just have to kind of be careful obviously.

But for me personally, I feel like I do have a way to impact, like mostly in my family and my relatives, and people do look at me like, I'm successful.

And I go after a while and I want.

I've gone against, like, I don't work a nine to five.

I live my life with passion.

So a lot of what I say does have an impact than I do feel like people believe it.

But I'm not nowhere near like the level of Muhammad Ali had.

So I can't even, the nerves that it takes for me to step into the cage is insane.

I couldn't even imagine like, taking that and amplifying it by like Leps said, like, I can't believe the things that he could do with no fear, say the things that he could say with no fear and truly believe it, you could see it in him.

Like he believes everything.

He doesn't care about anything.

He's gonna do what he wants.

And it's just amazing to me.

- A lot of courage.

Ron, I want you to weigh in on that question as well, but also, can you tell us about that photo that you have over your shoulder there?

That's pretty awesome.

I don't know if people can see it, but it's awesome.

- I feel like, Amanda I'm gonna get the other side that you can see it.

That's a picture of myself and Muhammad Ali in 1991 Bob Every and Elliot Harvey, boxing promoter, local boxing promoter brought Mohammad Ali to town for An Evening with Muhammad Ali.

It was nice event at the Radisson.

Ernie Terrell was there.

Quite a few people were celebrities were there.

And I'll tell you what about this picture?

And as I've gotten older, I've become very emotional these days.

Don't know why what that is, but I can honestly say on that day in 1991, I have five children.

Those five births and that day, were the sixth greatest days of my life.

That's what he meant to me.

What he stood for, like Amanda said, what he stood for, and getting back to the question is, when you see somebody that's that passionate about what they believe in, they're willing to risk everything.

And he's using his platform to do that.

As Amanda said, I mean you get some sponsors here that might drop you for not saying something that might, they don't believe in.

So she said, you gotta be really mindful of that.

But at the same time, you might pick up more sponsors who might wanna go that route.

And as you said, you don't know, you don't know unless you do it.

It's hit or miss and all that.

But to be able to perform at that top level, as Amanda said, you're going into a fight.

There's so much pressure in the fight game alone, just to participate in that.

So you've got all that anxiety, the tension, everything building up to that fight.

And now you've got the whole social scene behind you was well that you're standing in for something you believe in and standing up for a cause, you're adding so much more to your plate and to be able to perform at the level that he did is this unimaginable.

And that's just one of the things that makes him so great that he's able to do all that, that he can categorize that.

And have it, all where it's supposed to be and still perform at that highest level.

Because as you saw with Osaka in tennis, with all these different athletes, going through the mental aspect of the game, the mental game is everything.

Anybody getting fight.

I get two guys at the bus stop to go fight.

But to know in three weeks on this date, on this time, on this level, there's gonna be an event.

And a lot of people, my family, friends go see me compete the anxiety builds every single day.

People expect it's just a regular fight and that it's like that final exam that you studied for.

And people don't understand that aspect of the fight game.

They don't get everything that pressure that's involved with the anxiety involved in that.

You've got to be at your complete calmest and the most anxiety filled moment of your life.

And that's a balance a lot of people can't do.

And he was able to do that while still championing all these causes, which was so, dear to him and so passionate about because he's believing so strong.

And that's why people believed him, ended up believing him and following him because they saw later on that he was right about that.

It's just such an empowering thing to package all that together, and still perform at the level that he did.

- What are the most intriguing parts for you guys personally.

When you think of Mohammed Ali, what are the first thoughts that go through your mind?

Because, as we've all stated here tonight, I mean, there are, of course there's the aspect of how great he was in the ring.

Many people consider him to be the greatest of all time.

And he fought so many fights.

He fought wars in the ring.

But he was also one incredible, incredible human being.

I'll start with you, Leps.

- Ali was a man of peace.

And he believed in peace in a manner that is unimaginable.

He was a man of justice and he lived in social justice and he wanted to articulate it and not compromise on it.

And he believed that he can.

He was also highly confident and individual who was so proud to be who he is, and who decided that he's not going to be going to be bought by the highest bidder.

So that is something to me that is truly and truly amazing.

Because when you think about it as human beings, we have different kinds of pressures in society in life.

We know we wanna bring up our children.

We wanna make sure that they are safe.

We wanna make sure that our families are safe.

And that actually we factor that into the calculus of what we do on day to day basis.

Mohammad Ali could do a lot of that and he had his family.

And he could sacrifice a lot of that because he believed in it.

So there's so much high level confidence, so much pride, so much strength in belief in his ideals that are common to all humanity.

And he say, I'm gonna stand up for these ideas no matter what.

So that to me is the most remarkable thing for an individual like that who not only impacted the community within which he lives, the nation, but also became a global figure in terms of how he saw himself as a transformative global figure who can speak for the rights of people around the world.

And to me, I think that there are so many figures I've seen, but he's the most amazing human being I've read about, and learnt about.

Because I've never met him.

- Well, we know we can all be Ron.

Ron, what about you, man?

What about you?

- It's what you said as far as why his legacy continues to shine.

And as you mentioned, boxing if you see Mohammad Ali basically, as a boxer, you're missing half the big picture.

His legacy is still alive today because of the fact that as we talked about what he believed in, and what he stood for, it empowers so many people to believe in themselves, and believe in doing the right thing, and standing up for justice and what's wrong.

And so the boxing part as Amanda said, fighters come and go.

Fighters come and go, he had a great career.

As a matter of fact, today's the 43rd anniversary of his last victory regaining the title from Leon Spinks 43 years ago today.

- Wow.

- Yes.

But it's even saying that he hasn't been in the ring in 43 years and he's still so impactful, but that has more to do with what he did outside of the ring.

And that's what makes him such powerful so special.

The fact that the courage that it took to do what he did when you said, what do you think about Muhammad Ali it's courage, what you think of him is because what he did nobody is willing to do.

And that's why I think his legacy continues to shine because he instills that in people that to believe in what you believe in.

So like I said, I think was one thing, but just have it in that one box, that's all he basically did.

Then you really didn't know the man at all for what he actually believed in and what he stood for.

And that's why his legacy is still so strong today.

- Certainly, Amanda.

- I mean, everyone had such great points.

I keep thinking just from the fighter, the athlete aspect, I mean, I'm actually in school to be a sports psychologist right now.

So what Ron was talking about, like the mental side of it, I truly believe like on fight day, it's 98% mental.

And if you don't have your life together outside of the cage, the ring, the chance of being successful goes down.

In my opinion, like the minds, the mental side of it is so important and so big.

I'm always constantly trying to understand like how people like Muhammad Ali can have such chaos almost, and their life working towards all these things and still going into a fight.

I mean, fighting is hard.

And I don't know if anyone knows that it's so difficult and he's going in front of millions of people and with all this other chaos in his mind.

So what he impacts me the most, it's just from, I obviously love the psychology and the mindset of athletes.

And so what Ron was talking about, about how he can have so much have his voice doing all this stuff outside of the cage, but still be successful in the cage to me is like what impacts me the most?

And I feel inspired by like I have a little things going on.

This goes on this, my mom's mad at this, or I got little crap every day.

And you think about what an athlete like Mohammed Ali had to do.

He built this person.

He built up this person.

I mean, I'm not gonna say that is who he is.

And he has to live that person every day.

He can't shut that off for one interview.

He can't shut off who Muhammad Ali is for one moment of his day.

He has to be that energy, that motivation, that inspiration every moment of the day.

And that's why I think he's impacted so many lives and continues to have such an impact on the world today.

Fighting like, Ron said is such a small.

He was just a talented boxer with nothing behind that.

He'd just be another talented boxer, he wouldn't be the Muhammad Ali that we all look at.

And Ron's favorite moment is in one of the top five favorite moments of life is meeting him like that is so, that's amazing.

Can you imagine the knowing that.

- That's incredible.

And you know, Bob Every who's not able to join us tonight, but you know, Bob, again, you mentioned Bob, Ron and Bob's connection with Muhammad Ali and that personal connection that he had.

Because a lot of people don't know that Muhammad Ali, he lived in Michigan for a long time.

And what you never hear when it comes to Ali is some kind of horror story where Ali turned down an autograph, or when Ali turned down a photo.

He made sure to kiss every baby, to take every photo.

It's amazing where it's commonplace nowadays to hear of a celebrity or an athlete not having that kind of.

Too cool for school who doesn't wanna interact with the public.

And I'm pretty sure Ron when you met Ali, I mean, he was very gracious in that moment.

- It's very gracious.

And it's something that you had just mentioned also is the fact that in an interview, he actually mentioned that he said I'm a world figure.

And the chances of somebody meeting me and seeing me other than the fight game, where I'm doing something like that, it's pretty slim to none.

So I always have to be in my A game.

I always have to be that guy.

And as a man it's not a character that's him.

You can have a bad day because you'll remember that as I mentioned.

I'm 56 years old and that's in my top six of my things in life.

You know what I'm saying?

And that could have been totally different.

He could have been acted in a different way.

He made it very clear, made it obvious to make himself touchable, relatable to the world in public and greet every single last person as it was their first time, because that's probably gonna be the only time they'll ever see him.

So, like I said, to be mindful of that.

As we said about how hectic his day is, all the different commitments and sacrifice he's gotta make to still be that humanized person that can make someone's day like that.

And he did it non-stop.

- You said a key word there, Ron.

I have a question for Leps here, because Leps, you mentioned earlier the international appeal and figure that was and is Mohammed Ali.

It's amazing, when we watch of course, Mohammed Ali, again, starting on Sunday, eight part series Sunday to Wednesday, check it out.

And other specials I've watched of Ali, the international appeal that he had.

I mean, I can bring up the Thrilla in Manila.

And Ali booma yeee.

Out there in Africa.

Just amazing moments like that.

What made him the international figure in your view that he became?

- Well?

I mean, he made boxing an art.

Let's be honest about that.

You look at Ali tiring his opponent in the ring without just the artistry of no jabbing, jabbing and finishing off the opponent maybe on the seventh round or something like that.

I mean, who does that?

I mean, that's a totally different type of boxing to say Mike Tyson, who I really admire the lot, or maybe Evander Holyfield and others, even Joe Fraser.

This was the most amazing individual who decided to set his eyes on being the greatest boxer, being so clumsy on the day that he walked into that place in Kentucky becoming such a clumsy boxer that nobody thought he would go anywhere.

And then tending that is I'll be the greatest.

And he works towards those goals.

And then that artistry of boxing became the art and the capacity to speak.

And in a manner that is he connects with ordinary individual.

So Ali was able to connect with a crowd in his then Zaire which is today Democratic Republic of Congo.

And so he goes there to fight with George Foreman, I think, and Ali is the hero because of the way he communicates.

Because of the way he connects with the people.

And because people can say there is something about this individual, this boxer.

That is just so different from the others that I've met or seen before.

And he's speaking, he's talking peace, he's talking social justice issues.

People can identify with him.

And this was at the height in that country that was called Zaire.

It was at the height of the Cold War.

Civil War that was actually fought in Africa over ideology.

I don't know, ideology, the east and west communism and capitalism, whatever you wanna call it.

But it was a very difficult time for that country at the time.

But there he was, and then you move over from DRC today, which is Zaire then to South Africa, you see the same thing, the connection with, for instance, he was actually around Malcolm X.

And many other individuals who were at the time were articulating the peace and liberation, peace in Africa, liberation of the African continent.

So that in itself is what makes Ali a quite huge human being larger than life itself.

So the spoke and the articulation, and the connection with the people.

- Man, you all three of I've been so fantastic.

I mean, this thing could go for another two hours.

But unfortunately we don't have that time.

I wanna ask one more question to the three of you.

If you could choose one word to describe Mohammad Ali, what would it be and why?

And we'll leave our audience with those responses.

I will start with Amanda.

- I mean when you said it, the only the thing that just popped to my head was passion.

I mean, he was very passionate about every single thing in his life about, I mean, everything maybe except for like six marriages and I'm joking.

His fighting was passionate.

You could see in the ring, everything.

What loves to say in about his charisma inside the cage?

You gotta remember this guy was a heavyweight boxer that his movement and his ability to fight and make an art was very impressive.

I mean, he's passionate about his move making an impact and his movement and creating just what he believes in.

The passion that he has for everything he does not just boxing is what I think of when I think of Muhammad, the one word that popped in my head was just passion.

And it's addicting to be a part of, you wanna learn more about that you wanna understand why.

- Great word, Ron.

I would have to say courage.

Courage is one of the main things that pops up for everything that he stood for, and what he fought for.

Courage is just a very courageous man to do what he did.

That as we mentioned how difficult the fight game is in itself, you've gotta be courageous to be a fighter.

But for all the stance that he took, and basically all you said, risk everything to make sure his point is heard.

May make sure his voice is heard.

It's a very courageous thing that a lot of people don't have that in them.

So my thing is the courageous.

And as Amanda touched on, as far as being so fluid, I mean, he was a heavyweight boxing like a welterweight.

So smooth, so fluid, it's poetry in motion.

Definitely a courage when I think of Mohammad Ali.

- I like what you said, Leps.

He made boxing and art and he certainly did that.

He made us look at the sport in a different light for sure.

And Leps, what would you choose and why?

- I'm gonna say all of the above and many others that others have said, but add one word that I think must have been used before for us to describe Ali, transcendental.

Ali was able to transcend the self for the other, the ordinary for something bigger than himself.

He has been able to transcend so many things.

It could be the local to the international, or the global.

And also, if you think about transcending the ordinary, you think about, he is an individual starts at the most basic level, a young man who wants to make a living out of whatever, but then becomes a figure larger than life.

So he has transcended everything you can imagine.

So I think I'll use that word for him.

- I love that.

Transcendent.

That was great, great words, passion, transcendent, and courage.

I love that.

I can use those words to describe you three.

Thank you so much guys, Ron, Amanda, Leps, this has been fantastic.

And for all those watching, that is all we have for tonight.

I wanna again, thank our panelists for your time and contribution to our conversation, and a reminder Mohammed Ali, the complete eight hour series.

Eight hours of Ali runs for four nights starting this Sunday night at 8:00 PM.

You can catch it on WKAR TV and all eight hours will also be made available for streaming free, F-R-E-E in the PBS app at that time.

I'm Al Martin, you can catch me weekdays, 1:00 PM on 105.1 FM, WKAR.

I am your host of Current Sports.

And again, thank you all for joining us tonight.

Stay safe, everyone.