>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY, HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

PRESIDENT TRUMP PROMISED TO END AMERICA 'S FOREVER WARS.

I SPEAK TO FORMER OBAMA DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER.

PLUS -- >> WE ARE DEEPENING OUR OPERATION IN LEBANON.

IT IS TAKING CONTROL OF STRATEGIC AREAS.

>> AS ISRAEL PRESSES ON, IS THERE ANY PATH TO PEACE?

CONFLICT RESOLUTION EXPERT OLIVER JOINED ME.

> >> ALSO AHEAD, REPUBLICANS PUSH TO TAX MONEY SENT ABROAD TO NONCITIZENS THAT COULD HIT HAITI HARD.

WE SPEAK TO THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF "DOCUMENTED ," FOR WHAT IT MIGHT MEAN FOR HAITIAN FAMILIES.

> >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM , THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, CHARLES ROSENBLUM , MONIQUE WARSHAW, COMMITTED TO BRINGING --BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AS NEGOTIATIONS DRAG ON BETWEEN WASHINGTON AND TEHRAN, A DRAFT FRAMEWORK FOR A POSSIBLE AGREEMENT IS BEGINNING TO EMERGE.

IRANIAN STATE MEDIA SAYS THE PROPOSAL WOULD SEE THE U. S. LIFT ITS BLOCKADE AND PULLED AMERICAN MILITARY FORCES BACK FROM FACILITIES.

TEHRAN WOULD RESTORE COMMERCIAL SHIPPING, THROUGH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ WITHIN THE MONTH.

THE U. S. HAS DENIED THAT REPORTED THE ON-AGAIN-OFF- AGAIN OPTIMISM REMAINS THAT THE ECONOMIC SHOCK IS STILL RIPPLING AROUND THE WORLD AND MANY AMERICANS REMAIN SKEPTICAL OF ANOTHER WAR OF CHOICE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

SO, WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO DEAL WITH MONUMENTAL MISTRUST BETWEEN THE TWO SIDES THAT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN GROWING FOR DECADES?

PRESIDENT OBAMA'S LANDMARK CAIRO SPEECH IN 2009 RECOGNIZED THAT CHALLENGE.

>> RATHER THAN REMAIN TRAPPED IN THE PAST, I HAVE MADE IT CLEAR TO IRAN'S LEADERS AND PEOPLE THAT MY COUNTRY IS PREPARED TO MOVE FORWARD.

THE QUESTION NOW IS NOT WHAT IRAN IS AGAINST, BUT RATHER WHAT FUTURE IT WANTS TO BUILD.

>> HE REFERENCED MISTRUST.

MY FIRST GUEST HELPED WRITE THAT SPEECH AND WAS OBAMA'S DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, NOW BEN RHODES TURNS INWARD WITH HIS NEW BOOK, THE BATTLE FOR AMERICAN IDENTITY.

IT TRACES AMERICA'S HISTORY THROUGH 15 SPEECHES, FROM BENJAMIN FRANKLIN TO DONALD TRUMP, ARGUING THE FIGHT FROM THE NATION'S STORY IS FAR FROM SETTLED.

BEN, JOINING ME FROM WASHINGTON, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE WORLD YOU KNOW A LOT ABOUT, BEFORE GETTING TO YOUR BOOK.

THIS ON-AGAIN-OFF-AGAIN, IT IS ALL PROCEEDING NICELY, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, CAN YOU MAKE HEADS OR TAILS OF WHAT YOU THINK IS EMERGING?

>> I CAN, I MEAN, I THINK THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE PREWAR OBJECTIVES, YOU MIGHT BRING ABOUT THE CHANGE TO THE IRANIAN REGIME, THAT YOU COULD TERMINATE .

YOU RECALL, THE TERMS UNDER DISCUSSION, THE PREPARERS -- PROPOSALS INVOLVE NOT JUST THE ENDING THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM BUT ENDING THE BALLISTIC MISSILES PROGRAM OR CONTAINING INTO A CERTAIN RANGE.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS TO COME TO TERMS WITH THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOT GOING TO KEEP THEIR OBJECTIVES.

THE ONLY WAY OUT OF A WAR THAT HAS BEEN CALAMITOUS FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED, THE GLOBAL ECONOMY, THE AMERICAN MILITARY, THE ONLY WAY OUT IS TO ESSENTIALLY ACCEPT TERMS IN WHICH, YOU KNOW, THE BLOCKADE.

THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ IS REOPENED, THAT IRAN IS GOING TO GET REVENUE FROM SANCTIONS RELIEF.

AND THAT YOU ARE GOING TO NEGOTIATE IN NUCLEAR AGREEMENT, THERE WAS A LOT OF RESEMBLANCE TO THE ONE I WORKED ON IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, IRAN ACCEPTS LIMITATIONS ON ENRICHMENT.

AND I THINK THE REASON WE ARE STUCK, IS THE SEQUENCING OF THOSE EVENTS IS IMPORTANT FOR HOW IT APPEARS.

DOES IRAN GET REVENUE UPFRONT OR LATER?

ARE THEY, DO THEY MOVE BACK ?

FRANKLY, I FEEL THE IRANIANS FEEL THEY HAVE LEVERAGE, THEY ARE MORE THAN HAPPY TO WAIT THIS OUT.

AND DONALD TRUMP HAS TO ACCEPT WHETHER HE CAN SPIN, FRANKLY, AN OUTCOME THAT IS FAR FROM WHAT HE PROMISED.

>> YOU DO SAY A LOT OF VERY DISPARATE THINGS TO DISPARATE PEOPLE, PEOPLE WITH THE PHONE NUMBER, ET CETERA.

THE LATEST IS TELLING PBS, I BELIEVE, NO, THERE WILL BE NO SANCTIONS RELIEVED.

THAT IS ONE THING.

THEN THE OTHER THING WAS TALKING ABOUT, I DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT THE MIDTERMS.

I'VE GOT ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD.

THE IRANIANS ARE THE ONES DESPERATE TO MAKE A DEAL.

CAN YOU PARSE THOSE TWO STATEMENTS?

ONE IS SUBSTANTIVE ON WHETHER THEY GET SANCTIONS RELIEF OR SOMETHING, FOR EXPORTING ENRICHED URANIUM.

THEY DID EXPORT IT, BUT IT WAS NOT ENRICHED TO THE LEVEL IT IS NOW.

>> YES.

THE WAY I LOOK AT IT IS, HE MAY BE AWARE THAT THE IRANIANS FEEL THEY HAVE LEVERAGE BECAUSE THEY CONTROL THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND THEY DEMONSTRATED THEY CAN DO THAT, AND THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE.

THEIR OWN BRUTALITY ALLOWS THEM TO WAIT OUT THE PRESSURE FROM THE STOCKADE.

TRUMP CAN SAY HE DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THE EFFECT OF THE MIDTERMS, BUT THE REALITY IS , IT IS NOT JUST THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT IS GETTING IMPATIENT WITH THE WAR, IT IS THE GOLF ARAB ALLIES, WHO NEED TO MOVE THAT FOSSIL FUEL AND FERTILIZER THROUGH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

THE ONE THING I WANT TO ADD, AND YOU UNDERSTAND THIS, WHEN WE WERE NEGOTIATING WITH IRAN, IF WE WENT OUT PREMATURELY AND TALKED OF THE CONCESSIONS THAT WE WERE GETTING, WE WOULD HEAR FROM IRANIAN NEGOTIATORS.

WHAT KIND OF PROBLEMS WE WERE CREATING WITH THE IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARD CORPS, I THINK THE IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARD CONTROL, EVERY TIME TRUMP SAYS SOMETHING THAT SUGGESTS AN IRANIAN CONCESSION THAT HAS NOT BEEN MADE, MY GUESS IS THOSE IN ISLAM ABOUT GET A CAR -- CALL FROM THE IRGC SAYING, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

THAT UNDERMINES THE PROGRESS.

I THINK, IT IS PART OF THE REASON WE ARE NOT AT A DEAL YET.

>> YEAH, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, TRUMP DOING THAT PUBLICLY, AND HIS RIGHT-WING FLANK ALSO ATTACKING HIM, RIGHT?

THOSE WHO ARE EVEN FURTHER HARD LINE ON THIS WHOLE ISSUE.

YOU JUST SAID SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT AND INTERESTING AND WE KIND OF KNOW, WOW, TALK ABOUT A REVERSE DECISION, YOU JUST SAID THE IRGC IS IN CONTROL, THAT WAS NOT THE CASE BEFORE THIS WAR STARTED.

WHEN YOU THINK OF THE BIG PICTURE, WHAT DO YOU THINK POSTWAR IRAN LOOKS LIKE ?

FIRST OF ALL, THE WHOLE IDEA OF COMING TO THE RESCUE OF THE PEOPLE AND MANY DID AND STILL DO HOPE THAT THE BOMBING WOULD HAVE DISLODGED FROM INSIDE, DISLODGED THIS REGIME, BUT IT HASN'T.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, BIG PICTURE?

>> I THINK BIG PICTURE, IS THAT YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A MORE MILITARIZED AND HARD-LINE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT ON THE BACKEND OF THIS WAR.

YOU KNOW BETTER THAN ANYBODY, THE COMPLEXITY OF THIS REGIME, THE COMPLEXITY OF THIS REGIME, A LEADERSHIP AND A CLERICAL LEADERSHIP OVERSEEN, WHEN YOU DECAPITATE THE REGIME BY ASSASSINATING THE SUPREME LEADER YOU CREATE AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT, THE IRGC EMERGED TO CRACKDOWN ON THE POPULACE.

THEY ARE THE ONES WHO CONTROL THE STRAIT.

THE IRGC CLOSED THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

THEY ARE THE ONES WHO GENERATED THE LEVERAGE, BOTH ON THE UNITED STATES AND THE POSSIBILITY OF GENERATING ADDITIONAL REVENUE, IT ALSO STANDS TO REASON WHEN YOU CREATE AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS, THAT IS WHY I NEVER THOUGHT A MILITARY REGIME CHANGE IN ANY SENSE, THE PEOPLE OF THE MOST GUNS ARE GOING TO BE THE PEOPLE MOST POWERFUL IN THE COUNTRY.

AND THAT IS THE IRGC, TRAGICALLY.

I THINK A REGIME CHANGE , ON THE BASIS OF BEING HELPFUL, I AM NOT SURE THAT WAS REALLY THE PURPOSE, I THINK HAS LED TO A WORSE OUTCOME FOR THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

>> OF COURSE, A LOT OF THIS WAS POWERED BY THE VIEW FROM ISRAEL.

NOT ONLY THOSE WHO TOLD THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE PRESIDENT IN THE UNITED STATES, IF WE DO THIS, AND DECAPITATE THAT, YOU HAVE READ THE HULLABALOO OVER THIS MAD CABER TO PUT AHMADINEJAD, BECAUSE YOU WERE THERE WITH PRESIDENT OBAMA, PERHAPS THE WORST OF THE WORST OF A BAD BUNCH, HATED AND THE REST OF THE WORLD FOR WHAT HE SAID, WHAT HE DID, AND THE THREATS HE MADE.

NOW, IN THE BIG PICTURE REGARDING THE MIDDLE EAST, WE ARE HEARING FROM EXPERTS.

I SPOKE WITH DANNY, YOU REMEMBER, HE WAS AN IRAN EXPERT IN THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IN ISRAEL.

HE SAID THIS WHOLE THING IN ONE FELL SWOOP HAS ESSENTIALLY RUINED AND COLLAPSED U. S. AND ISRAELI DETERRENCE AGAINST IRAN , BECAUSE IRAN HAS FACED DOWN THE SUPERPOWERS AND HAS NOT CAPITULATED AND HAS NOT BEEN DEFEATED.

>> THIS IDEA, FIRST WE HEARD, IT WAS MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD , ACCORDING TO THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORT, THE REALITY IS, THAT WAS SENSIBLE THINKING.

PERSONALLY, I KIND OF FELT THE GOAL WAS REGIME COLLAPSE, BUT HERE IS WHERE WE ARE.

WE ARE IN A CIRCUMSTANCE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE DEMONSTRATED THAT THEY CAN SHUT DOWN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND PARALYZE THE GLOBAL ECONOMY, THEY NOW HAVE A DETERRENT WITHOUT HAVING A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

THAT IS A NEW DYNAMIC IN THE REGION.

SECONDLY, I THINK THE IRANIANS KNOW THAT AMERICA IS UNLIKELY TO ATTACK THEM AGAIN, THEY SAW HOW THIS WAS RECEIVED POLITICALLY AND AROUND THE WORLD, CAN YOU ENVISION AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT, EVEN DONALD TRUMP, ONE YEAR, TWO YEARS, THREE YEARS, THAT SEEMS HIGHLY UNLIKELY, SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL DIMINISHING IN THE UNITED STATES WHICH MAKES IT LESS LIKELY THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD JUMP INTO ANOTHER WAR WITH ISRAEL AS THEY DID IN THE 12-DAY WAR.

IF YOU REMOVE THAT THREAT, THE LIKELIHOOD OF AMERICAN MILITARY ACTION AND YOU ADD THE CAPACITY OF IRAN TO SHUT DOWN THE STRAIGHT, I THINK OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE THE GULF ARAB STATES ARE GOING TO ADJUST TO A NEW REALITY, THEY MAY NOT LIKE IRAN BUT THEY HAVE TO MAKE THEIR OWN DEALS WITH IRAN.

>> YEAH, LOOK, THE ADMINISTRATION CONFRONTED THE ISSUE OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND HAS BASICALLY ACCEPTED THAT YOU SORT OF PULL BACK A LITTLE BIT WITH THE PIVOT TO ASIA, HOPING THE MIDDLE EAST WOULD RESOLVE ITSELF, TO GET A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, CLEARLY THAT DID NOT WORK, AND EVEN MORE RADICAL ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

YOU HAVE IT FLANKED AND RUN BY EXTREMISTS WHO HAVE NO INTEREST IN A PALESTINIAN STATE AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT EVERYTHING IN THE VICINITY , WEST BANK, STILL GAZA.

WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN, I WILL QUOTE FOR YOU, SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN HAS WRITTEN IN THE NEW YORK TIMES, THE STATUS QUO IS UNACCEPTABLE.

IT IS PAST TIME THAT WE USE OUR LEVERAGE TO END THE OCCUPATION AND ACHIEVE TWO STATES WITH FULL POLITICAL AND LEGAL RIGHTS FOR ALL.

IF YOU ARE BACK IN THE WHITE HOUSE, DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT YOUR ADMINISTRATION WOULD PUSH FOR NOW?

>> I DO.

WE SHOULD TALK FOR A SECOND HERE, I WORRY A LOT, WITH THE DIRECTION THE IRAN WAR IS GOING, YOU HAVE THE POTENTIAL FOR AN ELECTION LATER THIS YEAR, NETANYAHU HAS OBJECTIVES, I WORRY THAT THE ESCALATION THAT WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN IN LEBANON COULD COINCIDE WITH ESCALATION BACK INTO GAZA.

OR ESCALATION EVEN FURTHER IN THE WEST BANK, AS NETANYAHU TRIES TO DO HIS FAR RIGHT POLITICS HEADING INTO THAT ELECTIONS CYCLE .

THE CAPACITY FOR THE IRAN WAR TO BE A FROZEN CONFLICT AND TO HAVE ISRAEL ESCALATE IN LEBANON, AND THE WEST BANK, AND PERHAPS IN SOUTHERN SYRIA AGAIN, I THINK THAT IS A REAL POSSIBILITY.

THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION THAT IS SERIOUS ABOUT THAT WOULD NOT BE PROVIDING A MILITARY ASSISTANCE OR SALES TO AN ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THAT IS DISREGARDING NOT ONLY AMERICAN ADVICE BUT FRANKLY ANY RESCUE FOR PEACE AND STABILITY IN THE REGION.

YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT PALESTINIAN RIGHTS, YOU HAVE TO BACK THAT UP, THERE IS A PATH THAT WE ARE WILLING TO , FRANKLY, HE ALLUDED TO THIS IN HIS ARTICLE, IF THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION IS TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE , YOU HAVE TO EXPLORE THE PURSUIT OF OTHER OUTCOMES.

WHAT CAN YOU DO TO PROTECT EQUAL RIGHTS FOR PALESTINIANS?

UNLESS THE UNITED STATES IS WILLING TO USE LEVERAGE ON THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, THAT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE.

THE TRUTH IS, WE HAVE NOT REALLY USED LEVERAGE, NOT UNDER SUCCESSIVE ADMINISTRATIONS.

>> WHO CAN READ THE FUTURE?

CERTAINLY, THE VIEW FROM THE UNITED STATES ATTENDING BOTH FROM THE DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN PARTY, AT LEAST WITH THE PEOPLE AROUND THE COUNTRY.

I WANT TO TURN TO YOUR BOOK, YOUR NEW BOOK ABOUT AMERICA ITSELF, IT IS TITLED "ALWAYS SAY. "

YOU HAVE CHOSEN VERY CAREFULLY , AS TO WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT AMERICA BACK THEN AND NOW, THE BATTLE FOR AMERICAN IDENTITY.

LET'S TALK ABOUT, INTERNALLY, WHO DO WE START WITH AND WHAT IS THE PREMISE THROUGHOUT THE ARK OF THOSE SPEECHES?

>> I WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED NOW BY UNDERSTANDING THE HISTORY OF THE DEBATE AND I START WITH BENJAMIN FRANKLIN BECAUSE THE SPEECH THAT HE AUTHORED, THE CLOSING ARGUMENT AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, IT DID NOT DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION THE DEFENDANT COMPROMISE.

BUNCH OF PEOPLE COME TOGETHER WITH DIFFERENT INTERESTS, VIEWS, AND PREJUDICES, WE ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE, IT WAS A STARTING POINT FOR THIS COMPETITION AND THIS CONFLICT WE HAVE HAD EVER SINCE.

THE THINGS WE COMPROMISED OVER WERE FUNDAMENTAL, EVERYTHING FROM HUMAN SLAVERY, WHO HAS FULL RIGHTS OF CITIZENSHIP, IMMIGRATION, HOW PEOPLE ARE NATURALIZED IN THE UNITED STATES.

I ESSENTIALLY TRACED THE ARGUMENT THAT WE HAVE BEEN HAVING EVER SINCE, AND REALLY, IT COMES DOWN TO TWO STORIES, ONE WHERE WE HAVE KIND OF INHERITED EXCEPTIONALISM, IT IS A WHITE , CHRISTIAN NATION, WE ARE THE INHERITORS OF WESTERN SUPREMACY AND, YES, OTHER PEOPLE CAN BE HERE BUT THEY HAVE TO BE SUBORDINATE TO THAT IDENTITY VERSUS A MORE PROGRESSIVE STORY ABOUT EXPANDING RIGHTS.

THE ABOLITION MOVEMENT, THE SUFFRAGE MOVEMENT, THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, FRANKLY, I THINK RIGHT NOW, PART OF THE REASON THAT AMERICAN POLITICS IS SO INTENT AND DISORIENTATING IS, FIRST OF ALL, ONE SIDE OF THAT COMPETITION HAS TRIED TO DECLARE IT OVER.

TRUMP HAS ESSENTIALLY SAID, THE STORY ENDS WITH ME AND MY IDEOLOGY.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, I ALSO FEEL THAT WE HAVE LOST THE CAPACITY TO HAVE SPEECHES THAT AIM TO ADJUDICATE THESE AND PERSUADE, WE HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT HOW FDR TALK ABOUT THE PURPOSE OF AMERICA'S FREEDOMS, PAINTING A PICTURE OF A DREAM THAT PEOPLE COULD DREAM OF.

OR EVEN OBAMA OR RAGAN , WHO HAD A KIND OF MORAL GROUNDING FOR HOW THEY BUILT THEIR COALITION THROUGH WORDS.

WE HAVE KIND OF LOST THAT ABILITY TO TALK TO AND LISTEN TO ONE ANOTHER.

>> AND YET, THERE IS A LOT OF TALK BEING SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS VERBALLY AND ON SOCIAL MEDIA BY LEADERS, AS WELL AS JUST ORDINARY PEOPLE.

I WANT TO USE EXCERPTS OF TWO SPEECHES THAT EPITOMIZE WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT, ONE, YOUR FORMER BOSS, PRESIDENT OBAMA.

BEFORE THE ELECTION, IT WAS FAMOUSLY CALLED THE RACE SPEECH IN 2008 WHEN HE HAD TO RESPOND TO NEGATIVE PUBLICITY AFTER HIS PASTOR SAID SOME STUFF.

THIS IS WHAT OBAMA TOLD THE NATION.

>> I CHOSE TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT AT THIS MOMENT IN HISTORY, BECAUSE I BELIEVE DEEPLY THAT WE CANNOT SOLVE THE CHALLENGES OF OUR TIME UNLESS WE SOLVE THEM TOGETHER.

UNLESS WE PERFECT OUR UNION.

BY UNDERSTANDING THAT WE MAY HAVE DIFFERENT STORIES BUT WE HOLD COMMON HOPES, WE MAY NOT LOOK THE SAME, WE MAY NOT HAVE COME FROM THE SAME PLACE, BUT WE ALL WANT TO MOVE IN THE SAME DIRECTION TOWARDS A BETTER FUTURE FOR OUR CHILDREN AND OUR GRANDCHILDREN.

>> BEN, I AM GOING TO QUICKLY PLAY THE TRUMP EXCERPT.

THEN YOU CAN DISCUSS IT.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAD A HAND IN WRITING THE RACE SPEECH.

WE WILL TALK ABOUT THAT.

TRUMP, IN HIS SECOND INAUGURAL, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE EXCEPTIONALISM YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT.

PARTICULARLY IN THE WAKE OF THAT FAILED ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AND HOW HE FEELS HE WAS HANDPICKED BY GOD.

HERE WE GO.

>> THE JOURNEY TO RECLAIM OUR REPUBLIC HAS NOT BEEN AN EASY ONE, THAT I CAN TELL YOU.

THOSE WHO WISH TO STOP OUR CAUSE HAVE TRIED TO TAKE MY FREEDOM AND, INDEED, TO TAKE MY LIFE.

JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO, IN A BEAUTIFUL POTENTIAL -- PENNSYLVANIA FIELD, AND ASSASSIN'S BULLET RIPPED THROUGH MY EAR.

I FELT THEN AND EVEN MORE SO NOW THAT MY LIFE WAS SAVED FOR A REASON.

I WAS SAVED BY GOD TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.

>> DISCUSS, BEN RHODES.

THEY ARE BOTH VERY POWERFUL SPEAKERS, PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS FAMOUSLY MOTIVATING.

AND TRUMP, HE SPEAKS, PEOPLE LISTEN AND FOLLOW HIM.

>> THOSE ARE THE LAST TWO CHAPTERS, THOSE TWO SPEECHES.

I SAY ABOUT OBAMA, I TOLD THE STORY OF BEING ON THE SPEECHWRITING TEAM FOR THAT SPEECH.

AND OBAMA GOT A DRAFT.

HE STAYED UP THE ENTIRE NIGHT AND THE NEXT MORNING, WE DID A DOCUMENT THAT WAS COMPLETELY REWRITTEN AND IT WAS THE MOST PERSONAL RECKONING WITH RACE THAT HE HAD DONE.

IN EACH CHAPTER, I TELL THE STORY, NOT JUST OF THE SPEECH, BUT THE MOVEMENTS THAT FED INTO THEM.

AND WHAT OBAMA IS SPEAKING TO IN THAT RACE SPEECH IS THE LONG, YOU KNOW, 200 AT THAT POINT, 235-YEAR EFFORT TO RECONCILE OUR DIFFERENCES.

THAT WE HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT RACES, OF DIFFERENT BELIEFS, EVEN DIFFERENT PREJUDICES.

AND HE IS VERY CANDID ABOUT THE PREJUDICE, THE INEQUALITY, AND THE RESENTMENTS THAT EXIST WITHIN THE BLACK AND WHITE COMMUNITIES WITHIN THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT HE SAID, MAKING A PLEA FOR COMMON IDENTITY.

A MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY, WE WORK OUR DIFFERENCES OUT THROUGH POLITICS.

FRANKLY, IF WE COULD BUILD A COALITION ACROSS RACES, WE CAN SOLVE THE PROBLEMS THAT HAVE AFFECTED US FOR SO LONG.

THE WORKING CLASS OF BLACK, WHITE, AND BROWN PEOPLE IN UNITED STATES.

THAT SITUATES HIM, IN THIS CONTINUUM IN MY BOOK, THAT RUNS BACK THROUGH THE ABOLITIONIST AND CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

TRUMP, ON THE OTHER HAND, HE DOES EMERGE OUT OF CERTAIN STRAINS OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

I LOOK AT THE AMERICA FIRST MOVEMENT IN THE 1930s.

THERE IS A POPULISM THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE, RESENTMENT IN THE UNITED STATES.

CERTAINLY ALWAYS ANTI-IMMIGRANT THROUGHOUT AMERICA --AMERICAN HISTORY.

WHAT IS DIFFERENT ABOUT TRUMP IS THE CLIP THAT YOU JUST PLAYED, CHRISTIANE HAD NEVER BEFORE, COULD YOU IMAGINE RONALD REAGAN SAYING THAT HE WAS SAVED BY GOD TO SAVE AMERICA?

TRUMP SITUATES HIMSELF OUTSIDE OF THE BOUNDARIES, THE AGREED- UPON LINES.

WHAT FRANKLIN IS SAYING IS, WE HAVE TO DESIGN A SYSTEM THAT ALLOWS US TO COMPETE AND CHANGE THE COUNTRY GOING FORWARD, BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY WITHIN THE RULE OF LAW.

YOU HAVE TO PLAY WITHIN ACCEPTED BOUNDARY, WHICH IS WHY I ACCEPT THE LEGITIMACY OF MANY THINGS THAT I DISAGREE WITH, THAT TRUMP STANDS FOR AND REPRESENTS BUT WHAT I CANNOT ACCEPT AND AGAIN, WHAT IS SO DISORIENTING ABOUT THIS MOMENT, THE KIND OF EXTRA-LEGAL MAJOR ASPECTS OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

I MEAN, LOOK AT THE IRAN WAR.

IT WAS NO EFFORT TO SITUATE THAT IN ANY LEGAL BASIS.

LOOK AT MANY OF THE THINGS HE HAS DONE BUT I THINK OBAMA AND TRUMP, I ENDED THE BOOK WITH THEM BECAUSE THEY CAPTURE PERFECTLY THESE KIND OF TWO OPPOSING STORIES.

ALTHOUGH, I THINK TRUMP HAS TAKEN IT FARTHER THAN ANYONE ELSE BEFORE HIM.

>> IT IS A REALLY FASCINATING LOOK AT WHO GETS TO CHOOSE TO BE AN AMERICAN, WHO GETS TO CALL THEMSELVES AMERICAN.

REALLY INTERESTING AND THANKS FOR YOUR OBVIOUS PERSPECTIVE, BEN RHODES, THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, A POSSIBLE U. S.

-IRAN PEACE DEAL COULD UPEND YEARS OF CAMPAIGNING BY THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, FOR WAR AND REGIME CHANGE, JUST AS HE CAMPAIGNED TO CHANGE, QUOTE, ISRAEL 'S MINISTER OF SECURITY.

IT IS ESCALATING, AND AID INTO GAZA REMAINS FAR BELOW WHAT IS NEEDED AND WHAT IS PROMISED.

REBUILDING REMAINS ON HOLD.

SO, IS THERE ANY HOPE FOR CONFLICT RESOLUTION ON THE HORIZON?

OLIVER IS AN EXPERT, DIRECTOR OF THE NGO FORWARD THINKING, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM .

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU HAVE JUST RETURNED FROM THE REGION, AND YOU HAVE BEEN ALL AROUND.

HOW DO YOU READ WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?

IDEAS, ATTITUDES, IN ARAB COUNTIES THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE VISITED ?

>> WE HAVE TO EMPHASIZE THE FACT THAT THE ENTIRE SITUATION IS VERY MUCH, WHAT HAPPENS WITH IRAN, AMERICA, ISRAEL, VERY MUCH IMPACT THE SITUATION IN THE WEST BANK.

I THINK, ONE THING YOU HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND IS THAT WE HAVE KNOWN DONALD TRUMP, A WAR OF CHOICE.

WHICH HE OBVIOUSLY NEEDS TO GET OUT OF HERE YOU HAVE THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, CHASING ELECTIONS ALSO IN SEPTEMBER.

AND THEREFORE, I WOULD SAY, IT GUARANTEES A CHANCE FOR SUCCESS IN THOSE ELECTIONS, HE NEEDS TO KEEP THE WAR IN IRAN GOING IF HE FAILS TO CONVINCE TRUMP, HE NEEDS TO ESCALATE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN LEBANON AND GAZA.

THIS MOSAIC, IT IS INTERTWINED.

THE, THEY ARE NICE --NOT ISOLATED.

I WOULD SAY IT IS LEADERS MEETING TO SAY --COME OUT OF A SITUATION LOOKING LIKE WINNERS.

>> LET ME PLAY WHAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU SAID YESTERDAY ABOUT THE LEBANON INTERVENTION THAT HE IS DOING AND WHAT MIGHT BE HAPPENING, YOU KNOW, FROM HERE ON IN.

THEY HAVE ESSENTIALLY BROKEN THE CEASE-FIRE THAT THEY WERE HOLDING.

AND IT JUST SEEMS TO BE BACK TO AN ALL-OUT WAR ON HEZBOLLAH POSITIONS.

THERE HAS BEEN ALL SORTS OF NEW CALLS TO EVACUATE PLACES IN LEBANON , AND THE LIKE.

HERE IS WHAT NETANYAHU SAID YESTERDAY.

>> Translator: WE ARE DEEPENING OUR OPERATION IN LEBANON.

IT IS OPERATING WITH LARGE FORCES ON THE GROUND AND TAKING CONTROL OF STRATEGIC AREAS.

WE ARE FORTIFYING THE SECURITY ZONE IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE COMMUNITIES OF NORTHERN ISRAEL.

>> SO, THAT IS WHAT HE SAYS PUBLICLY.

WHAT DO YOU HEAR FROM EITHER THE PEOPLE YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO IN ISRAEL, INCLUDING --I KNOW YOU TALKED TO SOME PARLIAMENTARIANS AS WELL AS CIVIL SOCIETY.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING, EVEN FROM LEBANON, ON THIS?

>> FIRST OF ALL, AND THAT WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT, WHEN THE TERRIBLE EVENTS OF OCTOBER 7th HAPPENED, SOME IN ISRAEL SAW IT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO INTRODUCE THE THIRD COMMONWEALTH, CLEAR GAZA, CLEAR THE WEST BANK, AND CLEAR EVERYONE SOUTH OF THE RIVER.

THEREFORE, YOU CAN AVENUE STATE , WHICH WAS A JEWISH STATE .

IN REALITY, AS WELL AS IN PRINCIPLE.

NOW THAT, THAT HAS NOT BEEN OVERLOOKED OR OVERSHADOWED.

IT IS NOT THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN PUSHING IT.

THERE ARE PEOPLE DEEP WITHIN LIKUD WHO WOULD BUY INTO IT VERY MUCH.

NETANYAHU IS COMING UNDER PRESSURE FROM THE FAMILIES WHO RETURNED TO NORTHERN ISRAEL.

LAST YEAR, I WITNESSED WHEN THE AREA WAS EVACUATED, THE EXCHANGE OF FIRE, THE ROCKETS COMING OVER.

ONE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT PRESSURE.

AND I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THE MENTALITY.

UNLESS THERE IS A CHANGE OF MINDSET, BOTH IN DONALD TRUMP AND BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

BASICALLY, THAT YOU DO NOT SOLVE THESE ISSUES BY FORCE.

YOU DO NOT SOLVE THEM BY IMPOSITION.

FOLLOW IT, THEY HAVE SAID IT OPENLY, LOOK AT HISTORY, WE KNOW THAT IS NOT TRUE.

PEACE, IT CAN ONLY COME WHEN PEOPLE HAVE EQUALITY, WHEN THE CORE FORCES ARE ADDRESSED.

AND THAT IS ESSENTIALLY COMING FROM THE JEWISH TRADITION OF THE PROPHETS, ESSENTIALLY WHEN JUSTICE IS PRESENT .

YOU CANNOT HAVE PEACE WITHOUT JUSTICE.

>> YOU KNOW, I HEARD PEOPLE ON THE PROGRAM, THE ISRAELIS, AND OTHERS, WHO SAY, OUT AND OUT, KIND OF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

THAT THE ACTUAL BIG CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS, WHICH IS UNRESOLVED, REMAINS THE BIGGEST EXISTENTIAL CRISIS FOR ISRAEL AND THERE WILL NOT BE PEACE IN THE REGION UNTIL THAT IS RESOLVED.

SO, YOU HAVE DONE SO MUCH WORK ON THIS.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TALKED TO THE POLITICAL WINGS OF HAMAS, YOU HAVE TALKED TO THE P. A. , THE ISRAELIS, YOU TALKED TO ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS.

WHERE DO YOU SEE, AT THIS TIME, GIVEN THE FACT THAT THERE IS AN ELECTION, GIVEN THE FACT THAT THEY BELIEVE IN MOWING THE LAWN AND THE REST.

THIS IS A ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME OPPORTUNITY TIME.

WHERE DO YOU SEE, IF THERE ARE ANY ROUTES FOR CONFLICT RESOLUTION ?

>> WELL, AGAIN, I TALKED ABOUT THE NEED FOR A CHANGE OF MINDSET BEFORE MAKING PROGRESS, RECOGNIZING THE ISSUES, THE NEED TO EQUALITY.

THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL THERE IS A CHANGE OF MINDSET IN THE WEST.

TOO OFTEN, WE THINK, PROTECTIVE OF ISRAEL, WE HAVE NOT RESPECTED IT ENOUGH TO CALL IT OUT WHEN IT OVERLOOKS THE ESSENTIAL NORMS THAT SHOULD GOVERN INTERNATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS.

RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE.

THE TERRIBLE HORRORS YET WE IGNORE THEM .

AND WHAT WAS SAID IN THE '22, NOVEMBER, '22 , A FOREIGN MINISTER ADDRESSING THE UNITED NATION'S GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HE SAID, IT IS ANTI-SEMITIC.

AND HE GOES ON TO SAY, TO TREAT ISRAEL DIFFERENTLY FROM ANY OTHER COUNTRY IS ANTI-SEMITIC.

I SAID, THANK YOU, BUT WE NEED TO PUT THAT INTO PRACTICE, NO ONE CAN DEED --DELEGITIMIZE THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

IF IT THINKS THAT IT CAN ACT WITH TOTAL DISREGARD, ESPECIALLY IN REGARD -- DISREGARD OF THE GENEVA CONVENTION AND THE OBLIGATIONS OF THE OCCUPYING POWER.

AND ULTIMATELY IT'S OBLIGATIONS , AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR, IN RELATIONSHIP TO LEBANON AND ALL OF THE SURROUNDING COUNTRIES.

YOU CANNOT BEHAVE WITH IMPUNITY.

AND THE RIGHTFUL PLACE, IN THE REGION, THERE NEEDS TO BE TWO CHANGES OF MINDSET, BEFORE WE SEE ANY SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS .

>> THAT WILL TAKE LEVERAGE, AS YOU SAY AND IT IS HARD TO SEE WHERE THAT LEVERAGE WILL COME FROM FROM THOSE WHO ACTUALLY DO HAVE THE LEVERAGE BUT I WAS SPEAKING TO MY PREVIOUS GUEST, BEN RHODES, THE PRESIDENT OBAMA DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THEIR NEED A BE A CHANGE TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS THIS JUSTICE, PEACE , AND SECURITY ROLE IN THAT REGION, AS YOU HAVE JUST BEEN OUTLINING, BUT YOU JUST WERE TALKING ABOUT YAIR LAPID, THE HEAD OF ONE OF THE PARTIES WHO HAS GONE INTO A PARTNERSHIP WITH BENNETT TO CHALLENGE, YOU KNOW, CONTEST THE NEXT ELECTIONS AGAINST BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

NONE OF THEM ARE TALKING ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF A PALESTINIAN STATE.

IN FACT, THE OPPOSITE.

THEY READ THE POLLS, THEY TALK TO PEOPLE, AND I DO NOT KNOW IF IT WAS ELECTIONEERING, BUT RIGHT NOW, THERE SEEMS TO BE NO HOPE EVEN FROM THE SO-CALLED OPPOSITION TO NETANYAHU.

>> I THINK WE ARE FACING TWO PROBLEMS.

FIRST OF ALL, ISRAEL IS IN A VERY TRAUMATIZED STATE.

THE POLITICIANS , WHETHER THEY RECOGNIZE IT OR NOT, YOU CAN SEE CLEARLY THEY ARE TRAUMATIZED BY THE PROLONGING OF THESE WARS.

THAT LEADS TO FEAR AND FEAR IS THE WORST, WORST ADVISER, YOU MIGHT SAY, IN CIRCUMSTANCES LIKE THIS AND THE SECOND ISSUE WE GET FROM INSIDE, TALKING WITH PEOPLE WE HAVE KNOWN MANY YEARS, WHO ARE OFFICIALS, ADVISERS , CHIEFS OF STAFF, THEY WOULD SAY THERE IS NO STRATEGIC VISION FOR THE FUTURE OF ISRAEL.

IT IS VERY MUCH AT THE MOMENT, NETANYAHU, OR, THE YAIR LAPID TAKEOVER, THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT CHANGE GOING TO HAPPEN.

I THINK WHAT IS NEEDED, IS FOR ISRAEL TO HAVE A PERIOD OF INTERNAL REFLECTION TO SEE ITSELF AND ITS ROLE IN THE REGION, BUT, I THINK, THIS STUPIDITY OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S STATEMENT, BUT HE SAID IT WAS MANDATORY FOR STATES LIKE SAUDI ARABIA, EGYPT, AND PAKISTAN TO ACCEPT THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS.

THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS ARE A ROOT PART OF THE PROBLEM.

THEY ARE NOT IN RECOGNITION OF THE RIGHT OF THE PALESTINIANS TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE, THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT, AND TO BE RECOGNIZED AS A SOVEREIGN PEOPLE.

IT IS A BIG TASK, WE KEEP AVOIDING IT, WE ARE FEARFUL OF SPEAKING TRUTH.

THE ONE THING I HAVE LEARNED, ISRAELIS ONLY RESPECT YOU IF YOU ARE TRUTHFUL AND BLUNT.

THEY USE ALL SORTS OF MECHANISMS IN THE SITUATION.

I THINK IT IS UNDERMINING THE SECURITY OF EACH COUNTRY, NOT ACTUALLY GUARANTEEING SECURITY.

IT IS UNDERMINING OUR FACTS.

>> LOOK , YOU ALSO TALK TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

I MEAN, JUST RECENTLY, THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER SAID ISRAELI IS WORKING, ARE YOU CONTINUING THIS IDEA THAT THEY SHOULD LEAVE?

ALSO, ON THE WEST BANK, THE PRESIDENT HAS HAD THE FIRST SET OF CONGRESS, BASICALLY NO PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, HE IS 90- PLUS YEARS OLD, EVEN HIS SON, THE 64-YEAR-OLD, JUST ELECTED IN WHAT MANY PEOPLE ARE CALLING A NAP OUT --NEPO ELECTION, THE AUGUSTINIANS RECOGNIZE THE RIGHT TO EXIST, IF THEY CANNOT MOVE FORWARD, WHO IS ABLE TO MOVE THIS FORWARD FOR THE PALESTINIANS?

>> THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE WEST BANK AND IN GAZA , WHO ARE VERY CAPABLE AND COMPETENT AND COULD PROVIDE THE LEADERSHIP THAT IS ESSENTIAL AT THIS TIME.

HERE AGAIN, I THINK THE EU AND AMERICA, WE GO FOR THE EASY OPTION.

WE GO FOR A SYSTEM, THE AGREEMENT, THIS TERRIBLE FAILURE THAT HAS BEEN USED TO PROLONG THE CONFLICT RATHER THAN END IT.

WHETHER THAN RECOGNIZING THAT IN 2006, SAYING THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN THROUGH A FAIR AND OBJECTIVE ELECTION , WE CHOSE, NO, WE WANT TO MANIPULATE THE SITUATION.

WE WANT TO PUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT REALLY GOT THE CONSTITUENCY TO GUIDE THE WAY FORWARD.

IT WILL NOT WORK.

IT IS NOT JUST THE ISRAELIS ARE FAILING AND THE SURROUNDING STATES, ALSO THE EU, MANY EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, NEED TO RECOGNIZE THE PALESTINIAN STATE.

THEY NEVER ACTUALLY PUSH TO ENSURE THAT THERE IS REAL REFORM , ELECTIONS, AND A GOVERNMENT IN PALESTINE.

WE HAVE NOT PROMOTED THAT.

WE PAY LIP SERVICE TO IT.

BUT WE DO NOT PROMOTE IT.

>> THE SO-CALLED BOARD OF PEACE HAS NOT DONE MUCH EITHER.

OLIVER McTERNAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

> >> IMMIGRATION IS A DEFINING PART OF U. S. HISTORY AND POLITICS.

HOUSE REPUBLICANS ARE PUSHING A 25% TAX ON THE MONEY THAT IMMIGRANTS SPEND OVERSEAS AND HAITI WOULD BE HIT ESPECIALLY HARD.

THAT COUNTRY IS GRAPPLING WITH CRISES FROM NATURAL DISASTERS, GANG WARFARE, AND A FULL-BLOWN HUMANITARIAN EMERGENCY AND RELIES ON REMITTANCES FROM THE U. S. , AFTER THE GUTTING OF USAID.

HE HAS BEEN COVERING THIS ISSUE AND JOINS TO EXPLAIN THE DEVASTATING IMPACT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, YOU ARE THE BETTER IN CHIEF THAT -- EDITOR-IN- CHIEF THAT FOCUSES ON NEW YORK CITY, TELL ME ABOUT HOW THESE RESTRICTIONS GOT ON YOUR RADAR AND WHY THEY ARE SO IMPORTANT?

>> WE COVER DIFFERENT LANGUAGES, WE WRITE IN ENGLISH, WE DO CHINESE, SPANISH, AND HAITIAN CREOLE.

WHAT MAKES OUR JOURNALISM A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY , WE SOURCE OUR STORIES FROM THE COMMUNITY, THEY SET UP QUESTIONS AND THERE ARE SEVERAL PLATFORMS FOR THE CARIBBEAN COMMUNITY.

WE STARTED GETTING QUESTIONS, RIGHT, ABOUT WHAT IT MIGHT MEAN.

IT IS A HUGE FLOW OF INCOME TO COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

$900 BILLION GLOBALLY SPENT.

THE UNITED STATES IS THE BIGGEST SENDER OF REMITTANCES, NEARLY $100 BILLION OF THOSE REMITTANCES COME FROM THE UNITED STATES IN NEW YORK CITY IS ACTUALLY 10% OF THAT.

THESE REMITTANCES ARE A HUGE LIFELINE FOR THESE COMMUNITIES.

PEOPLE COME HERE IN ORDER TO MAKE MONEY TO SEND TO THEIR FAMILIES BACK HOME.

WHEN THE ADMINISTRATION ANNOUNCED A 1% TAX ON REMITTANCES.

>> Reporter: BREAK THAT DOWN, WHAT CHANGED, AND WHEN?

>> REMITTANCES ARE TYPICALLY NOT TAXED, THEY ARE A BIG SOURCE OF GDP, AND THEY ARE FOREIGN DIRECT INVESTMENTS, BUT, IMMIGRANTS ACTUALLY PAY TAXES, RIGHT?

TO SEND MONEY THROUGH WESTERN UNION OR SIMILAR SERVICES.

ONE IMPORTANT NOTE, NEARLY THREE QUARTERS OF REMITTANCES SENT LEAD YOU TO UNDERSTAND THEY ARE TYPICALLY IMMIGRANTS.

SOMETIMES, OR MOST OF THE TIME, THEY ARE UN-BANKED.

TAKE NEW YORK CITY AS AN EXAMPLE, THE $10 BILLION THAT GETS SENT, $500 BILLION WAS PAID JUST IN THESE.

AN EXTRA 1% TAX, EVEN THOUGH THAT SEEMS LITTLE IS NEARLY $100 MILLION, RIGHT?

IF AN IMMIGRANT IS SENDING $100 TO THEIR FAMILY OR $200, IT IS LITERALLY WEEK FOR WEEK, THAT TAX THAT YOU PUT ON THE REMITTANCE WILL SEVERELY IMPACT IMMIGRANT FAMILIES.

>> Reporter: THERE HAS BEEN A SEPARATE DEVELOPING PUSH TO THIS TRANSFER SPECIFICALLY TO HAITI.

THERE WAS A POST MARCH 2nd THAT SAID, AMERICAN DOLLAR SHOULD NOT BE USED TO SUBSIDIZE FOREIGN ECONOMIES CLAIMING THAT HAITIANS WERE, QUOTE, TAKING $6.

1 BILLION FROM AMERICA, AND PLEDGING TO KEEP FIGHTING TO END THIS.

WHAT WAS THE REACTION FROM THE HAITIAN COMMUNITIES THAT READ YOUR PUBLICATIONS AND ASK YOU QUESTIONS?

>> YEAH.

WE PUBLISHED IN HAITIAN CREOLE, WE HAVE A TIKTOK CHANNEL, AND THE SAD THING ABOUT THIS, HAITI IS NOT EVEN ONE OF THE TOP 10 COUNTRIES THAT GET REMITTANCES.

MEXICO GOT MORE THAN $50 BILLION LAST YEAR.

IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, HAITI GETS AROUND $3 BILLION-$5 MILLION.

REMITTANCES HAVE INCREASED, IN 2025 THERE WAS A 25% INCREASE IN REMITTANCES SENT FROM THE U. S. TO HAITI.

THAT IS BECAUSE OF THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN HAITI , IT IS SO DIFFICULT.

HAITI HAS, UNDER THE LAST 15 YEARS, CRISIS AFTER CRISIS, IT WAS IT IN 2010 WITH A HUGE EARTHQUAKE, DISPLACED 1.

5 MILLION PEOPLE, THAT WAS FOLLOWED BY A CHOLERA OUTBREAK TRACED TO U. N. PEACEKEEPERS, THEY HAVE HAD HURRICANES, THEIR PRESIDENT WAS ASSASSINATED A FEW YEARS AGO.

ALL OF THAT CONTRIBUTES TO NEARLY HALF OF PEOPLE LIVING IN HAITI ARE UNDER SEVERE RISK OF STARVATION, THEY NEED HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

AND OF THE REMAINING 6 MILLION, 3 MILLION ARE CHILDREN.

THE SITUATION IS DIRE.

REMITTANCES CONSTITUTE NEARLY ONE-FIFTH OF THE COUNTRY'S GDP.

ABOUT 70% ACTUALLY COMES FROM THE UNITED STATES.

HAITIANS IN THE UNITED STATES SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES BACK HOME FROM STARVATION AND WE HAVE HEARD THAT FROM OUR HAITIAN MEMBERS.

IT IS NOT ABOUT, I AM SENDING MONEY, I AM SENDING MONEY SO THAT MY FAMILY DOES NOT STARVE.

COUPLED WITH THE FACT THAT THE U. S. ADMINISTRATION HAS CUT OFF AID, AS OF 2025 THERE IS NO MORE USAID GOING TO HAITI.

THIS KIND OF ADDS TO THE LAYERS OF THE TROUBLES THAT HAITI HAS BEEN GOING THROUGH.

COMPLETELY, NOT JUST A 1% TAX, BUT TO BAN REMITTANCES WOULD LEAD TO THE STARVATION AND DEATH OF MANY, MANY HAITIANS.

>> Reporter: WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE ARGUMENT THAT SAYS, LOOK, THE $6 BILLION IS LEAVING THE U. S. ECONOMY.

IT IS GOING SOMEWHERE ELSE.

WHAT ARE PEOPLE MISSING ABOUT THAT?

>> THE UNITED STATES HAS TYPICALLY NEVER TAXED REMITTANCES BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THE UNITED STATES POLICY TO LET COUNTRIES FLURRIES BUT YOU WANT THE GDP TO GROW, YOU WANT ECONOMIES TO GROW.

THE ADMINISTRATION WANTS TO DECREASE ADMINISTRATION.

ONE OF THE WAYS WE DO THAT IS MAKING SURE THE PEOPLE IN THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE LESS REASON TO LEAVE, RIGHT?

IF THEY ARE GETTING RE- MEDICINES, --REMITTANCES, THEY ARE ALLOWED TO STAY IN THE COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY ARE GETTING REMITTANCES FROM THEIR FAMILIES BACK HOME.

SO, GLOBALLY, ACROSS THE WORLD, ABOUT $900 BILLION, IT LITERALLY LOOKS LIKE IT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO INVEST IN THEIR HOMES, AND THEIR FAMILIES, AND TO BUILD THEIR COUNTRY.

WHAT IS MISSING FROM THIS ARGUMENT, THIS IS IMMIGRANT HARD-EARNED MONEY, THERE IS OFTEN RHETORIC OF IMMIGRANTS SOMEHOW NOT WORKING FOR THIS MONEY, THAT THEY ARE SOMEHOW NOT DESERVING OF IT.

THIS MONEY IS EARNED BY WORKING, MOST OFTEN LEGALLY, IN INDUSTRIES THAT WE NEED.

THEY SEND SOME OF THEIR MONEY BACK HOME TO SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES.

THEY ALSO SPEND SIGNIFICANTLY IN THE UNITED STATES.

IN OHIO, THIS COMES UP A LOT IN THE MEDIA , A CITY THAT WAS LESS THAN 60,000 PEOPLE HAD SUFFERED FOR FIVE DECADES WITHOUT ACTUAL GROWTH.

AND WHEN AN INFLUX OF JUST OVER 10,000 HAITIANS, IT LITERALLY LIFTED UP THE ENTIRE ECONOMY, RIGHT?

THEY FILLED JOBS.

IN SOME CASES , FOR YEARS HAD NOT BEEN FILLED.

THEY BOUGHT HOMES, THEY LIFTED UP THE ENTIRE ECONOMY, RIGHT ?

THIS GOES BACK TO IMMIGRATION BEEN GOOD FOR THE U. S. ECONOMY.

AGAIN, THESE REMITTANCES SUPPORT FAMILIES, COUNTRIES, AND IT ACTUALLY BENEFITS THE UNITED STATES BY MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE HERE ARE CONTRIBUTING THEIR MONEY TO BOTH THE U. S. ECONOMY AND PAYING TAXES.

>> Reporter: WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN TERMS OF THE IMPACT THAT THE EXISTING RESTRICTIONS , THE 1% TAX, AND POSSIBLY WHAT IS COMING DOWN THE LINE, WHAT WOULD THAT DO TO A HAITIAN FAMILY IN PORT-au-PRINCE, IF THE MONEY DID NOT COME FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE IN UNITED STATES?

>> THE MAJORITY OF REMITTANCES GOING TO HAITI COME FROM THE UNITED STATES.

PRIMARILY FROM THOSE WHO WORK HERE LEGALLY.

AND WHAT WE HEAR, REMITTANCES SENT TO HAITI STOP FAMILIES FROM STARVING.

A 1% TAX ON ITS OWN IS ALREADY DAMAGED --DEVASTATING ENOUGH, BUT A COMPLETE BAN TO A COUNTRY THAT IS DECIMATED BY POLITICAL AND HUMANITARIAN INSTABILITY.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF IS THAT FEAR AND THAT PERCEPTION OF WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN, THAT COULD CHANGE THEIR LIVES.

EVEN THOUGH IT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.

BEING AFRAID OF A DIGITAL FOOTPRINT, EVEN IN HAITIAN, IF YOU HAVE A BANK ACCOUNT, IN ORDER TO AVOID THAT 1% TAX, IF I PUT MY INFORMATION ONLINE, I AM AFRAID.

PEOPLE GO FURTHER UNDERGROUND, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T WANT TO GO TO THE DOCTOR, THEY DON'T WANT TO SEND KIDS TO SCHOOL.

THEY ARE NOT FREQUENTING BUSINESSES.

WE INTERVIEW PEOPLE IN LITTLE CARIBBEAN IN NEW YORK CITY, IT IS NOT THAT THEY ARE JUST NOT GOING TO WORK, THEY ARE BRINGING BUSINESSES DOWN.

RESTAURANTS ARE DOWN, THE U. S. ECONOMY, THE NEW YORK CITY ECONOMY WILL ACTUALLY BE HEARD.

THERE ARE 350,000 HAITIANS LEGALLY IN THE UNITED STATES, TWO THIRDS ARE WORKING, THEY CONTRIBUTE TAXES.

THEY CONTRIBUTE, YOU KNOW, BUYING HOMES, THEY LIVE HERE.

IT IS NOT JUST THOSE PEOPLE IMPACTED, BUT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN HAITI.

>> Reporter: IS THERE A REASON WHY HAITI SPECIFICALLY SEEM TO HAVE A BULL'S-EYE ON ITS BACK FROM THE ADMINISTRATION?

THINKING BACK, YOU KNOW, ABOUT THE FALSE CLAIMS OF EATING CATS AND DOGS IN SPRINGFIELD, THAT BECAME SORT OF DEEP POLITICAL CONVERSATION IN AMERICA.

YOU ARE LOOKING AT TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO CHANGE THE TEMPORARY PROTECTED STATUS.

IT IS TEMPORARY.

THE EARTHQUAKE WAS 15 YEARS AGO .

WE SHOULD BE SENDING PEOPLE BACK TO HAITI?

>> THE SITUATION, IF NOT WORSE, IS DEFINITELY NOT BETTER, THE EARTHQUAKES, HURRICANES, GANGS TAKING OVER, THE TPS IS A PROTECTED STATUS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE KIND OF FELL UNDER THAT.

BUT THIS ADMINISTRATION, AND PART OF THE RHETORIC AROUND IMMIGRANTS, AND THE OTHER RING --OTHER RING THAT HAPPENS, ALL THE WAY BACK IN THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES, IN ORDER TO KIND OF ADVANCE THE RHETORIC AROUND, THEY EAT STRANGE FOODS, THEY ARE VIOLENT, THEY TAKE AWAY OUR JOBS, IT IS COUNTRIES THAT FIT WITHIN THAT RHETORIC.

THE PENALTIES LEVELED AT HAITIANS, EVEN THOUGH THE MAJORITY ARE HERE LEGALLY AND PAY TAXES, CUTTING OFF USAID, AND NOW VOWING TO END PROTECTIVE STATUS REALLY DOES HIT A COMMUNITY THAT, AGAIN, CONTRIBUTES IN OTHER WAYS.

MORE --SOME GROUPS ARE WELCOME MORE THAN OTHERS.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ANNOUNCED THEY WANT TO INCREASE WHITE SOUTH AFRICANS AS REFUGEES.

HE WANTS TO ALLOW 10,000 FROM SOUTH AFRICAN, SPECIFICALLY WHITE, TO AVOID POLITICAL PERSECUTION.

THAT RAISES THE QUESTION OF WHY SOME GROUPS AND NOT SOME OTHER GROUPS.

AND THE HAITIANS' CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE UNITED STATES ECONOMY IS UNDENIABLE.

THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE PAYING TAXES.

$1.

5 MILLION, JUST IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> Reporter: I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE REACHED OUT TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

HOW DID THEY EXPLAIN ON ONE HAND WANTING PEOPLE TO HIMSELF THE PORT AND THE ON THE OTHER HAND HAVING A DO NOT TRAVEL WARNING.

THERE ARE STILL GANGS THAT CONTROL PORT-au-PRINCE, IT IS NOT IT'S A PLACE TO GO.

>> IT IS DIFFICULT TO GET COMMENTED WHEN THEY DO, THEY KIND OF POINT TO STATISTICS .

IN CONTEXT, YES, IT DOES SEEM THAT THERE ARE NUMBERS THAT HAVE GONE DOWN AGAIN, TO YOUR POINT, THE FACT THAT PATIENTS DO NOT VISIT.

THE U. N. ITSELF, TALKING ABOUT HOW MANY HAVE BEEN DISPLACED IN THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF .

THE NUMBERS CLEARLY POINT TO A HUMANITARIAN SITUATION BUT THE NUMBERS THAT I JUST QUOTED ON STARVATION AND CHILDREN NEEDING HELP, THE SITUATION IS STILL AS HORRIBLE AS IT IS.

AND IT WAS DESIGNED FOR A SPECIFIC AUDIENCE.

EVEN THOUGH NOTHING HAS HAPPENED YET, YOU COULD WAKE UP TOMORROW AND THIS HAS TAKEN PLACE.

BUT AGAIN, THE IMPACT ON HAITIANS, IT LEADS THEM TO SOLVE THE PORT, WE HAVE TALKED TO SO MANY OVER THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF, HAITIANS, AND IMMIGRANTS FROM OTHER CARIBBEAN COUNTRIES, THIS LOOMING LIMBO, AT ANY MOMENT, THE BACK-AND-FORTH CEASE-FIRE, IT HAS CAUSED SO MANY TO SAY WE ARE GOING TO LEAVE OURSELVES.

THERE ARE OTHER IMPACTS OF PROPOSED POLICIES THAT ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

>> Reporter: WHEN WE THINK OF REMITTING MONEY, THERE WAS A LOT OF, WHETHER IT IS THE TAX THE U. S. HAS STARTED, OR EVEN, IF YOU WALK UP TO A WESTERN UNION WITH A $100 BILL.

A $100 BILL IS NOT WHAT IS GOING TO GET TO THE OTHER SIDE.

WESTERN UNION IS GOING TO TAKE A CUT AS WELL.

>> THESE ARE FEES THAT ARE PAID.

ONE OF THE REASONS I CAN CONFIDENTLY SAY THAT THE 1% TAX SPECIFICALLY FOCUSES ON KIND OF LOWER-WAGE, SPECIFICALLY IMMIGRANTS, IT IS ONLY ON PEOPLE WHO ARE SENDING, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY.

THEY DON'T HAVE A U. S. BANK ACCOUNT, CREDIT CARD, THERE IS ALREADY A SIGNIFICANT PORTION BEING TAKEN BACK TO 1% CAN BE $100 MILLION.

THE U. S. ADMINISTRATION AGAIN MAKES THE ARGUMENT THAT THIS WILL INCREASE REVENUE COMING IN THE UNITED STATES.

BUT THE TRUTH IS, THERE IS AN ACCOUNTABILITY REPORT FROM EARLY 2016 THAT CLEARLY STATES IT IS SO DIFFICULT TO ENFORCE.

PEOPLE WILL FIND DIFFERENT WAYS OF SENDING MONEY.

THE BENEFITS FAR OUTWEIGH THE COST.

>> Reporter: WHAT DOES THE HAITIAN COMMUNITY PLAN TO DO?

ARE THERE OPTIONS TO RAISE THIS IN CONGRESS, IS IT HAPPENING ON THE GROUND .

>> WE TALKED TO A LOT OF ADVOCACY GROUPS THAT WORK WITH THEM.

THEY WORK A LOT OF EDUCATION THAT I THINK THAT IT'S REALLY CRUCIAL THING FOR A LOT OF IMMIGRANTS.

THEY DO NOT SPEAK THE LANGUAGE, RIGHT?

THAT IS WHY WE PUBLISHED IN THE LANGUAGES, SO IMMIGRANTS CAN DIRECTLY COMMUNICATE THAT WE HAVE SEEN A HUGE UPTICK IN QUESTIONS BEING SENT TO US, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

IT HAS KIND OF THROWN SO MANY PEOPLE'S LIVES INTO CHAOS.

WE ALSO PUBLISH GUIDES THAT HELP PEOPLE NAVIGATE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS ACTUALLY MEANS FOR THEM.

BUT AGAIN, THE HAITIAN COMMUNITY , THE FEAR THAT I MENTIONED, THAT HAS BEEN DRIVING SO MANY PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, REALLY A LOT OF WHAT WE DO IS EDUCATION, INFORMING.

LIKE I SAID, WE HAVE SEEN PEOPLE TAKE EXTREME ACTIONS, LEAVING THEMSELVES.

FINDING SOME WAY ELSE, THEY STILL WANT TO SEND THE MONEY.

THEY OFTEN FALL PREY TO SCAMS.

IT HAS GONE UP SIGNIFICANTLY IN NEW YORK CITY, NOT JUST IMMIGRATION SCAMS, BUT ALL KINDS OF BAD ACTORS WHO WERE TRYING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT FEAR AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM.

AND IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT THE ADMINISTRATION SPECIFICALLY HAS CHOSEN SOME OF THE MOST HARD-HIT COUNTRIES TO MAKE SOME KIND OF AN EXAMPLE OF WHY, YOU KNOW, DEPORTATION.

BECAUSE AGAIN, THESE ARE PEOPLE'S REAL LIVES BEING IMPACTED , DAY BY DAY, WHO ARE TERRIFIED FOR THEIR FAMILIES, AND MORE THAN THEY ARE FOR THEMSELVES, AND I WILL HAVE LESS MONEY, HOW I MAKE SURE MY ELDERLY PARENTS BACK HOME DON'T DIE.

>> Reporter: EDITOR IN CHIEF, ETHAR EL-KATATNEY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

> >> FINALLY, SCIENTISTS HAVE MADE A BIG DISCOVERY, NO BIGGER THAN A GULF BALL.

DEEP-SEA RESEARCHERS HAVE IDENTIFIED AN OCTOPUS NEAR THE GALAPAGOS ISLANDS .

FAMED FOR CHARLES DARWIN'S DISCOVERY OF EVOLUTION.

THE CREATURE WAS SEEN NEARLY 6000 FEET BELOW THE SURFACE AND THE STRIKING BLUE COLOR IS RARE.

AS CUTE AS THIS LITTLE OCTOPUS MIGHT BE, THESE ARE INTELLIGENT ANIMALS.

THIS ONE CLEARLY PREFERS TO KEEP A LOW PROFILE, AND AWAY FROM ANYONE'S FISHING NET.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

GOOD NIGHT, AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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