>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

IN SERBIA, CAN ANTI-CORRUPTION PROTESTS TAKE DOWN A POPULIST PRESIDENT?

DEMOCRACY ACTIVIST MAJA STOJANOVIC JOINS ME.

THEN TO GAZA WHERE THE END OF THE CEASE-FIRE COULD ALSO MEAN ENDING ANY CHANCE OF AN EDUCATION FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN THERE.

> >> AND THE HARROWING NETFLIX HIT SERIES THAT TAKES ON TOXIC MASCULINITY.

I'M JOINED BY STEPHEN GRAHAM.

STAR AND CO- WRITER OF "ADOLESCENCE. "

> >> PLUS, ELON MUSK CLAIMS NO ONE HAS DIED AS A RESULT OF HIS DOGE CUTS.

NICHOLAS KRISTOF JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN AND HE BEGS TO DIFFERENT.

> >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

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KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

RIPPLES FROM THE TSUNAMI OF TRUMP DISRUPTION ARE BEING FELT ACROSS THE WORLD LIKE IN SERBIA WHERE POPULIST PRESIDENT ALEXANDER VUKIC FACES PROTESTS FORCING HIS GOVERNMENT TO RESIGN.

POLICE SAY MORE THAN 100,000 PEOPLE FLOODED THE STREETS OF BELGRADE THIS WEEKEND.

INDEPENDENT OBSERVERS SAY IT IS MUCH HIGHER.

IT IS AFTER A CONCRETE CANOPY COLLAPSED AT A TRAIN STATION IN NOVEMBER KILLING 15 COMMUTERS.

MANY BLAME THE COLLAPSE ON RAMPANT GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION.

HOW DOES THE TRUMP FACTOR SHOW UP?

OBSERVERS SAY VUCIC, LIKE OTHER STRONG MEN LEADERS IN EUROPE, ARE CRACKING DOWN ON USAID CIVIL SOCIETY GROUPS THAT HE BLAMES FOR INCITING PROTESTERS.

IF THE STRONGEST LEADER IN THE WORLD CAN GUT USAID ALL THE WAY FROM WASHINGTON, THEN WHY SHOULDN'T VUCIC HAVE A GO AT THEM, TOO?

MY NEXT GUEST LEADS ONE SUCH PRO DEMOCRACY ORGANIZATION THAT HAS BEEN TARGETED BY HER OWN GOVERNMENT.

MAJA STOJANOVIC IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF CIVIC INITIATIVES AND SHE JOINS ME FROM BELGRADE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M GOING TO GET TO THE NATURE OF THE PROTEST IN A MOMENT BUT WERE YOU SURPRISED THAT THE GOVERNMENT RESIGNED, LOOKING TO TOPPLE THE PRESIDENT OR THEY JUST WANTED CORRUPTION TO BE ADDRESSED?

>> SO BASICALLY, IT IS IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT DIDN'T RESIGN YESTERDAY.

ACTUALLY, THE PRIME MINISTER RESIGNED IN JANUARY AND FOR HOW MANY MONTHS OR SO, THE GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY, THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY WAITED TO PASS DOWN IMPORTANT LAWS FOR THEM WHICH ARE IMPORTANT FOR, THE LAW AND PROCEDURES FOR A COUPLE OF ASSEMBLY MEETINGS.

SO BASICALLY, THE ASSEMBLY DIDN'T ACCEPT THE RESIGNATION OF THE PRIME MINISTER FOR A WHILE.

BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO -- >> OKAY.

>> WHICH ARE NOT PUBLICLY SUPPORTED.

>> SO LET'S GO TO THE PROTESTS.

WE EXPLAINED WHAT THEY ARE, WHY THEY HAPPENED, BECAUSE OF THE COLLAPSE OF THE CANOPY.

BUT WHY HAVE THESE PROTESTS BECOME SUCH A HUGE THING?

SYMBOLIZING APPARENTLY MUCH MORE THAN THAT CANOPY AND 15 DEATHS.

>> SO THIS IS THE BIGGEST THING.

WE ARE WITNESSING NOW PEOPLE ON THE STREETS IN MORE THAN 300, 400 CITIZENS.

IT MEANS ACTUALLY THAT IN EACH CITY, IN EACH SMALL VILLAGE, EACH IMMUNE IT MUNICIPALITY, WHAT IS DIFFERENT, IS THESE PROTESTS ARE LED BY YOUNG PEOPLE.

WE NEVER HAD THAT IN SERBIA.

I THINK IT IS RARELY SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD THAT PEOPLE FROM UNIVERSITY, HIGH SCHOOL PUPILS, ELEMENTARY SCHOOL PUPILS ARE GOING INTO THE STREETS AND ASKING FOR THE ACCOUNTABILITY OF THE GOVERNMENT.

IT IS THE FIRST TIME I WOULD SAY IT WAS VERY SYMPTOMATIC.

THE PEOPLE NOT KILLED WHEN IT FELL BUT ALSO, THE SAME, NOW IS OPEN BY THE GOVERNMENT COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO AS THE BIGGEST AND MOST IMPORTANT, THE LOVELIEST RAILWAY STATION.

SO PEOPLE AUTOMATICALLY CONNECTED WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE RENOVATION OF THE RAILWAY STATION WITH THE KILLING OF PEOPLE, AND THE MAIN SLOGAN OF THE PROTEST ACTUALLY FROM THE BEGINNING, IT WAS CORRUPTION KILLS.

IT WAS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN THE DIFFERENT PROTESTS THAT WE HAD ABOUT THE ACTION OR ENVIRONMENTAL PROTESTS OR ANY OTHER PROTESTS.

IT WAS LED BY YOUNG PEOPLE.

THEY'RE USING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT METHODOLOGY AND THIS IS TO KEEP ONE THE PREVIOUS QUESTIONS.

THIS IS WHY THE GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY RESIGNED IN JANUARY, BECAUSE PEOPLE, YOUNG PEOPLE WERE ATTACKED AND THEN PROVOKED EVEN MORE FRUSTRATION FROM THE CITIZENS.

>> SO EXPLAIN TO US.

VUCIC HAS BEEN IN OFFICE FOR I THINK COMING ON TO EIGHT YEARS.

HE'S HAD, HE'S LIVING OUT HIS TERMS.

WHAT DOES THIS SAY ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT?

HOW IS THE MEDIA COVERING IT?

IS VUCIC AND THE GOVERNMENT TRYING TO CRACK DOWN ON THE PROTESTS?

WHAT KIND OF POLITICAL CRISIS IS IT SHOWING IN SERBIA RIGHT NOW?

>> SO VUCIC IS IN OFFICE FOR MORE THAN EIGHT YEARS, BUT WE HAVE HIM IN POWER UNTIL --SINCE 2012.

AND WHAT IS VERY IMPORTANT, DURING THIS PERIOD, IT IS MORE THAN A DECADE.

WE HAD A CAPTURED STATE.

WE DIDN'T HAVE SEPARATION OF POWER.

IT WAS FULL CONTROL OF MEDIA, FULL CONTROL OF THE JUDICIARY.

BASICALLY AT THIS POINT, WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT WHO IS TRYING TO STAY IN POWER, BUILDING ON THIS UNDEMOCRATIC PROCESS WAY OF GOVERNING FOR YEARS.

SO AT THIS POINT, WE HAVE A HUGE CRACKDOWN ON CIVIL SOCIETY.

A HUGE CRACKDOWN ON THE PROTESTERS.

RAISING THE QUESTIONS AGAINST CIVIL SOCIETY, ONLY BECAUSE IT WAS THE ONLY REASON BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP AND ELON MUSK SAID THAT USAID IS CORRUPT AND CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION.

BASICALLY WE ARE FACING HUGE PRESSURE TOWARD THE CITIZENS.

AS CIVIC INITIATIVES, MORE THAN 2,000 CASES OF PRESSURE ON THE CITIZENS, BUT ALSO THE ARREST OF YOUNG PEOPLE, AND WE CURRENTLY HAVE YOUNG PEOPLE IN JAIL.

MY FAMILY AND I WERE AFFECTED BY THE PRESIDENT.

IT HAPPENED A COUPLE OF TIMES A WEEK ON THE NATIONAL STATION.

SO ALL THE NATIONAL STATIONS ARE PERPETUATING THIS MESSAGE THAT WE ARE THE FOREIGN AGENTS.

THAT WE ARE THE ONES ORGANIZING A POWERFUL REVOLUTION, THAT WE ARE SUPPORTED BY THE GOVERNMENT FROM OUTSIDE.

>> RIGHT.

>> WHICH I HAVE TO SAY, VERY TRICKY.

TRICKY, TRICKY, TRICKY, AND DOESN'T HAVE ANY LOGIC.

BECAUSE THE BIGGEST MONEY USAID GAVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF SERBIA AND THE CIVIL SOCIETY AND NONGOVERNMENTAL GROUPS ARE GETTING 5 TO 7% OF THAT MONEY.

>> SO IF THE CIVIL SOCIETY IS UNDER PRESSURE, AS YOU SAY, BECAUSE VUCIC AND LIST TEAM ARE LOOKING AT WHAT IS BEING SAID FROM THE UNITED STATES, WHAT WAS IT LIKE BEFORE TRUMP?

BEFORE THIS WAR ON USAID?

WERE YOU ABLE TO OPERATE IN SERBIA?

HOW DID THIS MONEY HELP IN TERMS THE CIVIL SOCIETY SPACE?

BASICALLY, WE HAVE DIFFERENT PROCESSES.

THE MONEY WAS USED TO IF IT FOR DEMOCRACY.

WE ARE FIGHTING FOR DEMOCRACY AND RULE OF LAW FOR YEARS AND WE ARE THE ONES ACTUALLY TRYING TO SET UP SOME PRINCIPLES OF HOW THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD WORK.

SO THIS PROCESS, ESPECIALLY OUR USAID PROJECT WAS ACTUALLY USED TO CONNECT CIVIL SOCIETY WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND WE ARE PART OF THE GOVERNMENT PROCESS, HELPING GOVERNMENT TO BE MORE OPEN, MORE TRANS PARENTS AND TO RESPECT THE THE RULE OF LAW.

WHEN THIS STOPS, A LOT OF CIVIL SOCIETY ORGANIZATION LAWS, THE POSSIBILITY TO WORK MORE ON THIS TRANSPARENCY AND RULE OF LAW AND DEMOCRACY BUILDING.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WE HAD ONGOING PROCESS FOR YEARS THAT ACTUALLY, THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS SUPPORTED AND STILL IS SUPPORTED MAINLY FROM THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION OR FROM U. S. FOR YEARS BECAUSE THERE WAS THIS BALANCE OF ACTUALLY HOW TO FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY IF YOU ARE NOT ACTUALLY WORKING FOR THE GOVERNMENT.

AND OUR BELIEF NOW IS THAT WHAT IS LAPPING IN SERBIA FOR YEARS, THIS SUPPORT FOR REGIMES SHOW THE WRONG WAY, HOW TO FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY AND HOW TO SUPPORT MUTUALLY LIKE OUTSIDE OF THE BORDERS, WITH THE BORDERS OF DEMOCRATIC POWERS.

>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT AUTHORITARIANISM AND THESE NATIONALIST GOVERNMENTS, I MEAN, DO YOU STILL LOOK TO THE UNITED STATES?

DO YOU LOOK TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AS A SUPPORTER OF DEMOCRACY?

OR VICE VERSA?

AND HOW DOES WHAT'S HAPPENING IN SERBIA FIT IN WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING IN HUNGARY, WHAT'S HAPPENING ACROSS YOUR BORDER IN THE REPUBLIC, IN BOSNIA.

THERE'S A LOT OF RESISTANCE TO DEMOCRATIC NORMS IN THOSE COUNTRIES AS WELL.

THOSE PLACES.

>> WE SEE THE GLOBAL SITUATION IS LITERALLY DECLINING DEMOCRACY.

WE ARE ALL CONNECTED VESSELS.

THE WORLD IS GLOBALIZED SO MUCH THAT ANY KIND OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN ONE COUNTRY, HOW SMALL THE COUNTRY IS REALLY NOT IMPORTANT.

IT IS ACTUALLY OVERLAPPING AND IT IS CONNECTED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

SO OUR PERSONAL BELIEF, PEOPLE OF THIS REGION ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THE DEMOCRACY NEEDS TO BE BUILT COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

IT NEEDS TO BE BUILT FROM THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL.

I THINK YOUNG PEOPLE ARE TEACHING US VERY IMPORTANT LESSON NOW.

WE AS A DEMOCRACY ACTUALLY LOST OUR BASIC PRINCIPLES AND VALUES.

MAYBE NOT FORGOT COMPLETELY BUT WE FORGOT HOW TO FIGHT FOR THEM.

NOW THE SPEECHES OF FREEDOM, SPEECHES OF DEMOCRACY, NOT EVEN DEMOCRACY BUT BASIC JUSTICE AND BASIC RIGHTS ARE SOMEHOW CAME TO THE RIGHT WING SIDE.

AND I THINK THAT WE NEED TO LOOK AND YOU ESPECIALLY NEED TO LOOK WHAT HAPPENED IN SERBIA THE LAST TEN YEARS SO WE CAN ALL LEARN AND FIND A WAY TO UNDERSTAND AND ACTUALLY FIND A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BASIC PRINCIPLES, HOW TO REBUILD DEMOCRACY.

DEMOCRACY IS BUILT EVERY DAY.

AND I THINK THAT WE ALWAYS, DEMOCRATIC POWERS FORGOT THAT.

NOW WE HAVE EXAMPLE IN SERBIA AND I WOULD REALLY LIKE FOR PEOPLE AROUND THE REGION, THEY STARTED, BUT ALSO GLOBALLY TO LEARN FROM THIS EXAMPLE.

>> AND FINALLY, DONALD TRUMP JR. WAS IN SERBIA.

BIG PICTURES OF HIM WITH PRESIDENT VUCIC POSTED ALL OVER THE PLACE.

WE KNOW THAT THE TRUMPS AND SON-IN-LAW BUSINESS THERE.

THEY WANT TO BUILD A HOTEL IN BELGRADE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT VUCIC IS GETTING FROM THAT ASSOCIATION WITH THE TRUMPS?

HOW IS HE USING THAT TO HIS ADVANTAGE IN BELGRADE NOW?

IN SERBIA?

>> WELL, HE IS USING EVERYTHING HE CAN USE.

HE USED, HE'S VERY HAPPY THAT SUCH BIG AND IMPORTANT COUNTRIES ACTUALLY SENDING THE SAME MESSAGES.

SO THIS IS ACTUALLY MESSAGE TO THE CITIZENS OF SERBIA WHEN TRUMP'S SON COMES HERE, IT IS A MESSAGE THAT FAMILY IS IMPORTANT.

THAT GOVERNMENTS ARE RUN BY FAMILY.

IT IS A CALL AND A SUPPORT FOR NEPOTISM.

A CALL AND SUPPORT FOR CORRUPTION.

AND IT IS VERY HARD.

YOU CAN IMAGINE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR US TO HAVE THESE MESSAGES SENT FROM THE POWERS THAT USED TO BE, AND WE ARE STILL HOPING, I WILL SAY THAT, THAT THE RESULT THAT THE U. S. STAYS DEMOCRATIC.

AT THIS POINT WHAT IS COMING IS A MESSAGE FROM U. S. WHAT IS COMING IS A MESSAGE FROM PEOPLE CONNECTED TO U. S. NOT ONLY TRUMP'S SON BUT GIULIANI WAS RECENTLY IN A LOT OF CONNECTED PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT WAYS TO BUSINESS OR FAMILY WERE HERE IN THE REGION.

AND I WOULD SAY THAT THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS FOR DEMOCRACY BUT ALSO FOR THE REGIONAL STABILITY, AND KEEP IN MIND THAT WE HAVE CONFLICT IN THE REGION STILL.

SO ANY DISTURBANCES, IT CAN HAVE A HUGE CONSEQUENCES IF WE ALL DON'T FIND A WAY TO KEEP DEMOCRACY ALIVE TOGETHER.

>> A WARNING FROM SERBIA.

THANK YOU, MAJA STOJANOVIC FOR JOINING US THIS EVENING.

> >> WE TURN NOW TO GAZA WHERE ISRAEL HAS GONE TO WAR AGAIN WITH INCREASING FEROCITY.

DOZENS HAVE BEEN KILL AGAIN THIS MORNING BRINGING THE DEATH TOLL TO 50,000 ACCORDING TO AUTHORITIES SINCE HAMAS ATTACKED OCTOBER 7th.

AND HAMAS HAS RESPONDED TO THE LATEST ISRAELI AIR STRIKES.

FIRING SEVERAL MISSILES INTO THE CENTRAL PART OF ISRAEL TODAY.

NOW, CAUGHT INTO THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THIS ARE CHILDREN.

THEY, TOO, ARE BEING KILLED IN HUGE NUMBERS, AND THEY HAVE BEEN TRAUMATIZED.

DURING THE BRIEF RESPITE IN FIGHTING UNDER THE JANUARY CEASE- FIRE, SOME OF THOSE TEACHERS IN GAZA TRIED THEIR BEST TO HELP CHILDREN LEARN IN MAKESHIFT SCHOOLS AMIDST THE RUBBLE.

PAULA HANCOCKS HAS THIS REPORT.

>> Reporter: LEARNING TO WRITE THE LETTER D IN ARABIC AND WHAT'S LEFT OF THE CHALKBOARD.

BASIC EDUCATION HAS BEEN DENIED FOR SO LONG.

IT WAS LAST DECEMBER WHEN THE WAR WAS RAGING WHERE RUBBLE WAS THEIR PLAYGROUND AND A BUILDING THAT LOOKED READY TO COLLAPSE, THEIR PLACE OF LEARNING.

>> Translator: MANY CHILDREN WERE TOO SCARED TO COME, THE TEACHER SAYS, BECAUSE OF THE DESTRUCTION ALL AROUND.

>> Reporter: THE 13-YEAR-OLD WAS ONE OF THE STUDENTS, GRIEVING FOR LOST RELATIVES BUT DETERMINED TO LEARN.

>> Translator: MY SCHOOL HAD EVERYTHING, SHE SAYS.

CHAIRS, PENCILS, NOTEBOOKS AND CHALK BOARDS.

NOW WE SIT ON RUBBLE.

IF WE FIND A NOTEBOOK AMONG THE RUINS, WE TRY TO USE IT.

>> Reporter: DURING THE TWO-MONTH CEASE-FIRE, SHE WALKED ON THE RUINS.

A SEVENTH GRADER WHO USED TO BE TOP OF HER CLASS.

>> Translator: I FEEL NO CEASE-FIRE, SHE SAYS.

THERE IS DESTRUCTION EVERYWHERE.

THE SAME AS WAR.

>> Reporter: WHAT HAD CHANGED IS SHE HAD SPACE TO REALIZE HOW MUCH SHE HAD LOST.

NO HOME AND NO SCHOOL.

>> Translator: I FEEL MY HEART IS RIPPED APART LIKE I'M IN PIECES, SHE SAYS.

I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO DESCRIBE IT.

>> Reporter: NOW A DEVASTATING RETURN TO WAR -- THREATENS THE LIMITED EDUCATION SPACES THAT HAD BEEN CREATED.

>> IT IS AS IMPORTANT AS PROVIDING LIFE-SAVING ASSISTANCE.

THE MORE WE WAIT, THE MORE WE TAKE THE RISK TO SACRIFICE AN ENTIRE GENERAL RAFLGTS.

>> Reporter: THROUGH CONFLICT JUST ON THE HALF OF SCHOOL AGE CHILDREN ATTENDED THE SCHOOLS.

ISRAEL HAS SINCE BANNED THE U. N. AGENCY'S PRESENCE IN GAZA, ACCUSING IT OF TIES TO HAMAS WHICH THE U. N. DENIES.

MORE THAN 95% OF EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES IN GAZA HAVE BEEN PARTIALLY OR COMPLETELY DESTROYED SINCE OCTOBER 7th, 2023, ACCORDING TO A U. N. REPORT RELEASED LAST NOVEMBER.

INCLUDING MANY THAT HAVE BEEN TURNED INTO SHELTERS.

ISRAEL'S MILITARY CLAIMED MANY WERE USED BY HAMAS AS COMMAND AND CONTROL CENTERS MAKING THEM LEGITIMATE TARGETS.

AN ACCUSATION HAMAS DENIES.

UNICEF HAD SET UP MORE THAN 140 TEMPORARY EDUCATION SPACES, REACHING SOME 100,000 CHILDREN, STILL A FRACTION OF THOSE WHO NEED IT.

BUT SPACES WHICH ARE LARGELY SUSPENDED SINCE THE BOMBS STARTED FALLING AGAIN MONDAY.

SISTERS SHOULD HAVE BEEN CLOSE TO GRADUATING FROM UNIVERSITY BY NOW.

ONE IS AN ARCHITECT.

THE OTHER AS A PHARMACIST.

THE WAR FORCED THEM TO CONTINUE THEIR STUDIES REMOTELY, ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE GIVEN THE SCANT ELECTRICITY AND INTERNET.

THEY WERE DISPLACED MULTIPLE TIMES.

>> Translator: WE'RE FORCED TO COME TO THE FOURTH FLOOR, EVEN THROW THE BUILDING MAY COLLAPSE, SHE SAYS.

WE HAVE TO GET INTERNET CONNECTION FROM AN E-SIM CARD.

IN HER SIXTH YEAR OF PHARMACY STUDIES, SHE'S BEEN DENIED OF KEY EXPERIENCE WITH PATIENTS.

>> Translator: THE WAR AFFECTED US GREATLY, TO THE POINT WE'RE UNABLE TO GET PRACTICAL TRAINING, THEY SAYS, BECAUSE THE WAR LEFT NO FUNCTIONAL HEALTH SYSTEM OR HOSPITALS.

>> Reporter: ALMOST HALF OF GAZA'S POPULATION IS UNDER THE AGE OF 18.

FOR THEM, EDUCATION IS A LIFE LINE.

A HOPE FOR A BETTER FUTURE THAT HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM.

> >> NOW WE TURN TO A NETFLIX MINISERIES DELVING INTO THE HORRIFYING DANGERS OF MASCULINITY AND HARM TO WOMEN AND GIRLS.

IT IS AN URGENT ISSUE FACING SOCIETY AND PARTICULARLY FACING PARENTS WHO ARE RAISING YOUNG MEN.

"ADOLESCENCE" TELLS THE STORY OF A THEN-YEAR-OLD BOY IN ENGLAND ACCUSED OF MURDERING A GIRL IN HIS CLASS.

IT'S A DEEP DIVE INTO THE TRAUMAS AND IMPACT OF WHAT TEENAGERS ARE EXPOSED TO ONLINE THESE DAYS.

HERE'S A CLIP.

>> YOU'RE A GOOD DAD.

A GREAT DAD.

>> HE HASN'T BEEN FOUND GUILTY.

HE'S BEEN ACCUSED.

>> WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

>> YOU'RE NOT GETTING IT.

>> WHAT AM I NOT GETTING?

>> DADS REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

IT IS A COURT ACTION.

>> 80% OF WOMEN ARE ATTRACTED TO 20% OF MEN.

YOU'LL NEVER GET THEM IN A NORMAL WAY.

>> WE'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG, HAVE WE?

HEY!

>> THE TRAILER THERE.

IT'S INSPIRED BY TRAGIC REAL-LIFE EVENTS.

THE MINISERIES WAS COULD WRITTEN BY PLAYWRIGHT JACK THORNE AND STEPHEN GRAHAM.

FROM MATILDA AND BOILING POINT, HE DEMONSTRATES NOT JUST HIS RANGE AS AN ACTOR BUT ALSO A FEARLESS COMMITMENT TO TAKING ON THE TOUGHEST TOPICS.

HE PLAYS THE FATHER IN THIS MINISERIES AND HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

STEPHEN GRAHAM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> HELLO.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO I DON'T KNOW.

THIS IS PRETTY MUCH QUITE A RECENT, YOU KNOW, ADDITION TO NETFLIX.

IT'S ALREADY NUMBER ONE OVER THIS PAST WEEK IN 71 COUNTRIES.

MORE THAN 70 COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

ARE YOU, DID YOU EXPECT THIS KIND OF REACTION WHEN YOU STARTED INTO THIS?

>> NO, OF COURSE NOT.

WHEN WE MADE IT, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY COLLOQUIAL.

IT IS SET IN A LITTLE TOWN UP NORTH IN ENGLAND.

WE MADE IT WITH HONESTY, INTEGRITY AND RESPECT.

AND WHAT SEEMS TO HAVE HAPPENED, IT'S LIKE A STONE.

YOU THROW THE STONE INTO A POND AND THIS RIPPLE EFFECT HAS BEEN HUGE, REALLY, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

WE NEVER MEANT IT TO HAVE THIS IMPACT.

WE JUST WANTED TO TELL A TRUTHFUL AND HONEST STORY THAT WE CAME UP WITH.

>> IT IS REALLY INTERESTING AND IT IS GETTING SO MUCH ACCLAIM.

WE'LL GO INTO HOW IT WAS FILMED.

FIRST I WANT TO ASK YOU, I SAID IT'S ABOUT TOXIC MASCULINITY.

HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT IT IS?

IT'S ABOUT MORE THAN THAT, RIGHT?

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY YOU'RE TRYING TO EXPLORE IN THESE FOUR EPISODES?

>> BASICALLY, I READ AN ARTICLE IN THE PAPER A GOOD FEW YEARS AGO.

A COUPLE MONTHS LATER THERE WAS A PIECE ON THE NEWS, ON THE TELLY.

AND IT WAS ABOUT, THERE WERE TWO YOUNG BOYS WHO HAD STABBED THESE YOUNG GIRLS TO DEATH.

THEY WERE ON OPPOSITE ENDS OF THE COUNTRY.

AND IT MADE ME REALLY, REALLY, TO BE HONEST, IT REALLY HURT MY HEART AND IT MADE ME WONDER WHY THEY WOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THE AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IN OUR SOCIETY WHERE THIS THING IN BRITAIN HAS BECOME A REGULAR OCCURRENCE.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW THAT BEAUTIFUL SAYING, LIKE YOUR ARTICLE BEFORE THEN, IT TAKES A VILLAGE TO RAISE A CHILD.

>> YES.

>> WELL, WHAT I THOUGHT WE COULD LOOK AT IS MAYBE WE'RE ALL SLIGHTLY ACCOUNTABLE IN SOME WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

WE LOOK AT IT AND ANALYZE IT FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

MAYBE IT'S DOWN TO PARENTING, MAYBE DOWN TO THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, THE COMMUNITY, THE SOCIAL WORLD THAT THE CHILD IS RAISED IN.

WHEN WE WERE KIDS, WE DIDN'T HAVE THE INTERNET.

NOW THE INTERNET IS A HUGE INFLUENCE ON OUR CHILDREN.

IN MANY CASES, IT IS PARENTING OUR CHILDREN JUST AS MUCH AS WE ARE.

AND IT IS EDUCATING OUR CHILDREN JUST AS MUCH, IF NOT MORE, THAN OUR SCHOOLS ARE.

>> I WANT TO START, TAKE IT THROUGH FROM THE BEGINNING.

WE HAVE A CLIP FROM THE FIRST EPISODE.

AND THIS IS, YOU KNOW, QUITE A SHOCKING ONE FOR PARENTS TO SEE, FOR ANYBODY TO SEE.

WHEN THE POLICE BREAK DOWN YOUR FAMILY HOME, THE FRONT DOOR, TO COME AND ARREST YOUR SON JAMIE.

HE'S 13 YEARS OLD.

NOW, WE'VE SAID, AND YOU'VE THAT, IT IS REALLY NOT A WHO DONE IT SO THERE IS NO SPOILER ALERT.

IT'S A WHY DONE IT.

AND WE KNOW FROM THE BEGINNING THAT JAMIE IS ACCUSED OF COMMITTING THIS MURDER.

HERE IS ONE OF THE FIRST SCENES.

>> DI BASCOMB.

I HAVE A WARRANT TO SEARCH YOUR PREMISES.

WHERE IS HE?

>> OKAY.

JAMIE MILLER.

THE TIME IS 6:15 A. M. AND I'M ARRESTING YOU ON SUSPICION OF MURDER.

MR. MILLER!

MR. MILLER, I WILL ARREST YOU FOR OBSTRUCTION.

PLEASE STOP.

PLEASE.

I'M ARRESTING YOU ON SUSPICION OF MURDER.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING BUT IT MAY HARM YOUR DEFENSE IF YOU DO NOT -- >> DAD, I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING!

>> ANYTHING DO YOU SAY MAY BE GIVEN IN EVIDENCE.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

>> DAD, I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING!

>> JUST TELL HIM YOU UNDERSTAND.

>> ALL RIGHT.

I UNDERSTAND.

>> OKAY, GOOD.

GET UP SLOWLY, PLEASE.

>> SO IT'S REALLY TRAUMATIC.

YOU'RE A DAD.

WE CAN HEAR YOU OFFSCREEN TELLING HIM TO SAY HE UNDERSTANDS.

HE'S A CHILD.

HE'S BEEN ACCUSED OF A MURDER.

YOU THEN HAVE HIM SORT OF POP OUT OF BED AND HE'S WET HIMSELF.

THERE IS SO MUCH THAT IS TELLING US THE HUMANITY AND THE MADNESS OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS MOMENT.

WAS IT TRAUMATIC FOR YOU WHEN YOU SHOT IT?

I MEAN, TELLING THIS STORY, HOW DID YOU DECIDE TO SHOW IT LIKE THIS?

>> WE ALWAYS KNEW THAT THE FORMAT WE WOULD USE WOULD BE IN THE ONE SHOT.

WHAT THAT DOES, THAT ENABLES TO US GRAB THE AUDIENCE STRAIGHTAWAY.

SO I KNEW IN MY HEAD WHEN I WAS SETTING UP THE IDEA, WHEN I WAS TALKING TO JACK, OUR FANTASTIC WRITER, JACK THORNE, I WANTED TO GRAB THE AUDIENCE'S ATTENTION STRAIGHTAWAY.

I'M SLIGHTLY OBSESSED WITH "24 HOURS IN POLICE CUSTODY" AT HOME.

WE GET SOMEONE, WE ARREST THEM AND THEN WE SEE HOW THE POLICE BRING THEM TO TRIAL.

WITHIN THE CONCEPT OF THIS, STRAIGHTAWAY, I WANTED THE AUDIENCE NOT TO THINK THAT JAMIE WAS CAPABLE OF SUCH A HORRENDOUS ACT.

WITHIN THE FORMAT WE USE, WHAT WE CAN DO IS TAKE THE AUDIENCE WITH THE FAMILY.

SO THE GREAT THING ABOUT THIS SPECIFIC STYLE WHICH ARE AMAZING PHOTOGRAPHY, MARTIN LEWIS CREATED IT, PHIL, THE DIRECTOR AS WELL, YOU HAVE THE AUDIENCE STRAIGHTAWAY.

SO YOU HAVE THIS VOLUNTEERISTIC ELEMENT WITH THE CAMERA.

AS THE FAMILY ARE LEARNING AND WORKING OUT WHAT'S HAPPENING, SO, TOO, THE AUDIENCE.

SO THAT KIND OF CONCEPT, WITH HIM WETTING HIMSELF, ANY 13-YEAR-OLD BOY WITH POLICE COMING THROUGH THE DOOR WITH GUNS, WOULD IT FRIGHTEN THE LIFE OUT OF THEM.

WE WANTED TO MAKE HIM AS HUMAN AS POSSIBLE STRAIGHTAWAY.

AS IT UNFOLDS, THE AUDIENCE COULD BE THINKING, MAYBE HE COULDN'T HAVE DONE THIS.

COULD HE HAVE DONE THIS?

WHEN THEY FIND OUT HE HAS DONE IT, WE REALIZE AS AN AUDIENCE THE SAME WAY THE FAMILY REALIZED IN REAL-TIME.

>> SORRY, I DIDN'T WANT TO INTERRUPT.

THAT SCENE WHERE YOU FINALLY REALIZE.

YES, YOU DIDN'T WANT TO BELIEVE IT.

JAMIE, THE SON ASSESS I DIDN'T DO IT.

I DIDN'T DO IT.

AND THEN THE POLICE SHOW YOU THE CCTV.

YOU AND JAMIE WATCHING IT TOGETHER.

AND YOU SUDDENLY REALIZE, OH, MY GOD, MY SON HAS DONE THIS.

AND IT IS VERY --IT'S QUITE, IT'S QUITE SHOCKING.

AND AGAIN, HOW DID YOU DECIDE TO KIND OF TELL US WHO HAD DONE IT RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING?

WHAT WAS YOUR POINT ABOUT LETTING THE AUDIENCE KNOW THAT IT WAS THE SON, BECAUSE YOU HAD THREE MORE EPISODES TO COME.

>> WHAT WE WANTED TO DO THEN WAS BECAUSE WE KNOW HE'S DONE IT.

WE THEN WISH TO ASK OURSELVES THE QUESTION, WHICH I THINK WE SHOULD AS A SOCIETY, BUT AS AN AUDIENCE PARTICULARLY, AS IN WHY.

SO THE REST OF THE JOURNEY, WHAT WE DID, BECAUSE YOU COME INTO EACH POINT OF THE STORY, WE GRABBED THE ATTENTION STRAIGHTAWAY.

WE'RE WITH HIM FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE INCIDENT.

YOU HAVE A LINEAGE.

SO WITH THE CONVENTIONAL DRAMA, WE WOULD BE FOLLOWING THIS PROCESS LIKE CHRONOLOGICALLY.

WELL THIS CONCEPT, YOU COME INTO IT FOR AN HOUR.

THE NEXT EPISODE, WE'LL GO IN AND FIND OUT WHERE HE MAY HAVE BEEN THROUGHED OR WHY HE'S DONE THIS.

WHAT IS HIS LIFE LIKE WITHIN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM TO CREATE THIS HEINOUS ACT.

WITHIN THE CONTEXT.

THIRD EPISODE, YOU WOULD MEET THE CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST AND YOU WOULD MEET JAMIE FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.

WHAT I AM TO JACK WAS, I WANTED TO BE LIKE THE FIFTH TIME THEY'VE MET.

MY ONLY NOTE TO JACK WHO IS SUCH JUAN WRITER.

HE WRITES THE HUMAN CONDITION BEAUTIFULLY, JACK THORNE.

MY ONLY NOTE TO JACK WAS, WITHIN THIS EPISODE, I WANT TO YOU BASICALLY WRITE YOUR VERSION OF A DAVID PLAY.

IS THAT THE ONLY NOTE YOU'RE GIVING ME?

YEAH.

YOU'RE BEAUTIFUL.

LET'S GET INTO THE MIND OF THIS YOUNG BOY.

THAT'S WHERE CHARLOTTE, JACK'S YOUNG ASSISTANT, SHE FELT THAT WHOLE CULTURE AND THE MANOSPHERE.

I HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT THAT STUFF.

THAT'S WHERE THE COLLABORATIVE EFFORT COME INTO PLAY.

>> GO AHEAD.

FINAL EPISODE?

>> THE FINAL EPISODE, I WANTED TO REALLY LOOK AT THE IMPACT IT WOULD HAVE ON THE FAMILY.

BECAUSE AGAIN, WITHIN THE CONVENTIONAL DRAMA, AND RIGHTFULLY SO, WE WOULD NORMALLY FOLLOW THE VICTIM, THE FAMILY OF THE VICTIM.

AND THAT'S WHERE THE HEART IS, OF COURSE.

BUT WITHIN THIS ONE, I WANTED TO FOLLOW THE FAMILY OF THE PERPETRATOR.

BECAUSE WHEN THAT, I THINK I KIND OF GOT MYSELF TOGETHER.

I'M 51 YEARS OF AGE.

I'M A FAIRLY DECENT MAN.

I'M A DECENT MAN.

I FOUND MYSELF JUDGING WHEN I WATCHED IT ON THE NEWS, WHEN I HEARD ABOUT THIS YOUNG BOY AND THIS YOUNG GIRL.

I THOUGHT IT HAS TO BE THE PARENTS.

THERE WAS A MOMENT.

I HIT A MOMENT OF CLARITY.

WHAT IF IT IS NOT THE PARENTS?

DON'T JUMP TO THAT CONCLUSION.

>> OKAY.

>> I WANTED TO EXPLORE THAT.

>> IT IS REALLY INTERESTING, OF COURSE.

I WANT TO GO BACK TORSION LET'S TAKE THOSE TWO POINTS.

ONE IS THE MANOSPHERE AND WHAT WAS EXPLORED IN THE CLASSROOM.

AND THEN AS YOU MENTIONED, WITH THE PSYCHOLOGIST.

THIS IS JACK THORNE'S MOMENT.

AND HE, WE'RE GOING TO SHOW JAMIE, THE SON, WITH THE PSYCHOLOGIST WHO IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT HE THOUGHT ABOUT WOMEN, ABOUT THIS GIRL KATE AND TRYING TO FIGURE THIS OUT.

>> WERE YOU ATTRACTED TO KATIE?

>> SHE WASN'T MY TYPE.

>> WHAT DO YOU WANT?

>> SHE WAS QUIET.

NO OFFENSE.

>> RIGHT.

>> WELL, EVERYONE ELSE SAID IT.

THAT'S NOT JUST ME.

THE PICTURE GOT PASSED AROUND THE SCHOOL.

SNAPCHAT.

IT WAS JUST HER.

TOP OFF.

NOT ANYTHING ELSE.

>> WHY DID SHE SEND IT TO FIDGET?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

SHE FANCIED IT.

>> SO SHE WAS TRYING TO ATTRACT HIM?

>> I THINK HE ASKED HER.

NOT GOING TO GET ANY MORE PICTURES, IS HE?

>> NO.

SHE'S DEAD.

>> AGAIN, THIS IS, THIS IS THIS EPISODE.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ABOUT THE MANOSPHERE?

AND THE INFLUENCES THAT THESE --WHEN YOU EXPLORED IT, WHAT DID YOU COME OUT WITH?

THE INFLUENCES THESE YOUNG KIDS HAVE INDEPENDENT OF THEIR PARENTS.

WE SEE THE PARENTS SAYING, HE USED TO SHUT HIMSELF IN HIS ROOM.

WE GAVE HIM A COMPUTER.

WE HAD NO IDEA, YOU AS THE DAD, YOU HAD NO IDEA HE WAS DOING THAT STUFF.

>> OF COURSE.

IT'S THAT KIND OF SEXUALIZATION OF HUMAN GIRLS AND YOUNG BOYS, WHICH I THINK THE INTERNET IS HUGELY TO BLAME FORM KIND OF THING.

AND THAT PARTICULAR SCRIPT.

I HAVE TWO FRIENDS FROM TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SOCIAL BACKGROUNDS IN ENGLAND.

ONE FROM UP NORTH AND ONE FROM DOWN SOUTH.

THEY HAVE DAUGHTERS, ONE GOES TO A COMPREHENSIVE SCHOOL AND ONE GOES TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL.

AND BOTH THEIR DAUGHTERS' FRIENDS GROUPS WERE ASKED BY ONE OF THEIR BOYFRIENDS TO SEND PHOTOS OF THEM TOPLESS.

AND SO WHAT I REALIZED FROM THAT IS THIS IS NOT LIKE A CLASS THING.

THIS IS A SOCIAL THING.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

IT GOES RIGHT ACROSS THE BOARD TO WHAT KIND OF DEGREE IS THAT CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE?

AND ON TOP OF THAT, THAT KIND OF, I THINK IN MANY WAYS, WE'RE NOT POINTING THE FINGER AT ANYONE SPECIFICALLY.

THAT WAS NEVER OUR INTENTION, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

A DRAMA THAT IS WANTING TO RAISE THE QUESTION AND SIT DOWN AND HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT WHY.

AND THIS IS KIND OF, THE RESEARCH THAT WE ARE SHOWING, JACK DID A LOT OF RESEARCH ON THIS PROJECT.

HE SAID IT TOOK HIM DOWN A LOT OF DARK HOLE.

THE ACCESS THAT HE FOUND -- >> I WANT TO ASK YOU THAT.

I HAVE ONLY A LITTLE BIT OF TIME.

THE PRIME MINISTER OF THIS COUNTRY TALKED ABOUT THIS PROGRAM IN PARLIAMENT.

HE SAID HE'S WATCHING WITH IT HIS TEEN CHILDREN.

I KNOW YOU HAVE CHILDREN.

WHAT DO YOU WANT THE IMPACT TO BE?

IN AUSTRALIA THEY'VE JUST BANNED CHILDREN FROM SOCIAL MEDIA UNTIL THEY'RE 16.

THEY CAN'T GO ON UNTIL THEY'RE 16.

>> I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING WE SHOULD LOOK AT.

I THINK THERE'S A WAY --PEOPLE WILL SAY, FREEDOM OF SPEECH WHICH I UNDERSTAND.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND POISON.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

I THINK WE NEED TO BE VERY MINDFUL AND VERY, VERY CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT WE'RE INFLUENCING OUR YOUNG GENERATION, AND WHAT WE'RE ALLOWING THEM TO SEE.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

IF ANYTHING, PERSONALLY, PERSONALLY, IF WE CAN STRIKE SOME KIND OF COMMUNICATION, AND MAYBE, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE SAID THE MOST BEAUTIFUL THING THAT I THINK WE CAN GET FROM THIS IS WHAT THIS PROGRAM DID.

AND HAD I SAID THIS, MY WIFE SAID, WHAT SHE FEELS OUR PROGRAM HAS CLEVELAND IS FOR PARENTS TO BE ABLE TO I AM OPEN UP THE DOOR AND ASK THEM WHAT'S GOING ON.

LOOK, YOU KNOW YOURSELF, WHEN YOU GO TO A RESTAURANT SOMETIMES, NO DISRESPECT, I UNDERSTAND IT.

BUT KIDS SAT THERE ON, YOU KNOW, TALK TO EACH OTHER.

ASK EACH OTHER WHAT'S GOING.

ON THAT'S THE ONLY WAY WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING.

AD ADOLESCENCE IS SUCH A DIFFICULT AGE.

YOU'RE TRYING TO CONSTRUCT THIS CHARACTER THAT WILL TAKE YOU INTO THE FUFLT SO LET'S TALK.

LET'S OPEN THE BRIDGES OF COMMUNICATION.

VERY POWERFUL.

AND YOU HAVE GOT EVERYBODY TALKING ABOUT "ADOLESCENCE. "

SO CONGRATULATIONS.

A REALLY AMAZING PERFORMANCE AND A VERY POWERFUL SERIES.

STEPHEN GRAHAM, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

> >> IN THE UNITED STATES, A FEDERAL JUDGE HAS HALTED THE SHUTDOWN OF USAID FOLLOWING RELENTLESS EFFORTS BY ELON MUSK, DOGE'S GILL TEEN TO SLASH THE AGENCY.

MUSK INSIST NOES LIVES HAVE BEEN LOST.

"THE NEW YORK TIMES" OPINION COLUMNIST JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO SPEAK ABOUT THE LAYER OVERING PICTURE HE SAW IN KENYA AND SUDAN AFTER USAID SUPPLY LINES WERE CUT.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

JUST ABOUT TWO MONTHS AGO, THE PRESIDENT WANTED TO PAUSE ALL FOREIGN AID ASSISTANCE.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE THIS GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN THOSE STEPS?

>> WELL, I WENT TO SOUTH SUDAN TO TRY TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL.

AND WILL ELON MUSK HAD SAID THAT NO ONE HAS DIED BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DESCRIBED AS THIS PAUSE TO REVIEW AID, AND YOU KNOW, WITHIN AN HOUR OF BEGINNING MY REPORTING, I HAD FOUND THE NAME OF TWO YOUNG CHILDREN.

A 10-YEAR-OLD BOY AND AN 8-YEAR-OLD GIRL WHO HAD DIED BECAUSE THEIR MEDICATION, THEIR ARV MEDICATION AGAINST HIV HAD RUN OUT AND THEY COULDN'T GET NEW SOURCES.

THESE WERE ORPHANS AND VULNERABLE CHILDREN.

WHAT IS A 10-YEAR-OLD ORPHAN GOING TO DO IN SUDAN WHEN THE CASE WORKERS ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE, AND AGAIN, IT TURNS OUT THAT HE DOESN'T GET MEDICINE.

HIS VIRAL LOAD INCREASES.

HE GETS AN OPPORTUNISTIC PNEUMONIA AND HE DIES.

AND OVER AND OVER IN SOUTH SUDAN, I FOUND THAT KIDS WERE BEGINNING TO DIE BECAUSE OF THE AID SHUTDOWN AND THAT IS LIKELY TO BECOME A TIDE OF SUFFERING AND DEATH IN THE COMING MONTHS.

>> GIVE US SOME PERSPECTIVE.

OUR WORK ON DECREASING HIV TRANSMISSION IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD GOES BACK THROUGH MULTIPLE PRESIDENTS.

>> THE PROGRAM AGAINST AIDS MAY BE THE MOST HEROIC THING IN MY LIFETIME.

IT WAS STARTED BY GEORGE W. BUSH IF 2003.

AND THEY HAVE SAVED 26 MILLION LIVES AROUND THE WORLD.

IT IS HARD TO THINK OF ANY GOVERNMENT PROGRAM THAT HAS SAVED THAT MANY LIVES WORLDWIDE.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS TALKED ABOUT CONTINUING ELEMENTS OF IT, BUT IN FACT, WHAT I FOUND WAS THAT THING WERE BEING SHUT DOWN.

THAT EVEN WHERE HUMANITARIAN WAIVERS WERE GRANTED, THAT THERE WAS NO ONE THERE TO ACTUALLY MANAGE IT, TO MAKE PAYMENTS.

SO THESE PROGRAMS WERE BEING DISMANTLED AND KIDS WERE NOT GETTING THEIR MEDICATION.

>> I THINK THERE WILL BE SOMEONE WATCHING HERE THAT SAYS, WHY IS IT THE U. S. GOVERNMENT'S JOB TO FIGHT HIV AND AIDS IN AFRICA AND OTHER PLACES?

>> SO I WOULD OFFER TWO RESPONSES.

FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THESE KIDS AND YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS COSTING AMERICA JUST 12 CENTS A DAY PER PERSON TO KEEP THESE CHILDREN ALIVE, THEN YOU THINK, BOY, MAYBE THAT IS A PRETTY GOOD INVESTMENT.

AND THAT HAS CERTAINLY BEEN A BIPARTISAN VIEW IN THE UNITED STATES FOR A LONG TIME.

EVEN IF ANTIFREEZE RUNS IN YOUR VEINS, YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE MORAL ARGUMENT TO SAVE LIVES, THEN THERE IS A PRAGMATIC ARGUMENT OF SELF-INTEREST.

WE HAVE VALUES BUT WE ALSO HAVE INTERESTS AT STAKE.

AND ALSO WE CONFRONT CHINA WITH AIRCRAFT CARRIERS BUT WE ALSO CONFRONT CHINA WITH AID PROGRAMS.

THAT'S SO WE CAN HAVE BASE RIGHTS, LISTENING POSTS, OR THAT CHINA CAN.

WE CAN GET SUPPORT FOR OUR SANCTIONS, OR CHINA CAN GET SUPPORT AT THE U. N. FOR ITS INTERNATIONAL EFFORTS.

AND THEN BEYOND THAT, WE ALSO PROTECT OUR HEALTH IN AMERICA IN PART BY GLOBAL DISEASE SURVEILLANCE.

IT'S A LOT CHEAPER TO FIGHT EBOLA IN UGANDA THAN IN AMERICA.

AND POLIO ERADICATION.

THAT IS ONE ELEMENT THAT WAS SUSPENDED.

THE RESULT WILL BE MORE POLIO WORLDWIDE AND SOME AMERICAN KIDS WILL END UP PARALYZED OR DYING.

AVIAN FLU COMING RIGHT OUT OF A PANDEMIC.

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THE RISKS OF A PANDEMIC AND AVIAN FLU SURVEILLANCE HAS BEEN SUSPENDED, LAST I SAW, IN 49 COUNTRIES BECAUSE OF THE USAID SHUTDOWN.

SO YOU KNOW, I CERTAINLY BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A COMPELLING MORAL ARGUMENT TO SAVE LIVES WHERE WE CAN.

THERE IS ALSO AN ARGUMENT ABOUT PROTECTING OUR OWN LIVES AND OUR OWN PEOPLE.

>> YOU WORKED WITH A THINK TANK BASED OUT OF WASHINGTON, D. C. IN LONDON.

THE CENTER FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT TO TRY TO COME UP WITH AN ESTIMATE OF HOW MANY LIVES ARE AT RISK IF WE CONTINUE DOWN THIS PATH.

WHAT DID YOU FIND?

>> SO, LOOK.

A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY AND A LOT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH AID IS ACTUALLY DISMANTLED AND HOW MUCH IS REVIVED AND THERE IS LITIGATION AND THERE IS, YOU KNOW, IT IS VERY FLUID.

BUT THEIR BEST GUESS IS THAT U. S. AID CURRENTLY SBAIFS 3.

3 MILLION LIVES A YEAR AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THAT'S ONE WAY OF THINKING ABOUT HOW MANY LIVES WILL BE LOST IF EVERYTHING WERE SHUT DOWN.

IN FACT, I SUSPECT SOME ELEMENTS WILL BE PRESERVED, SO THE TOLL WILL BE LESS THAN THAT.

BUT THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THERE WILL BE MANY, MANY, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WHO WILL DIE BECAUSE WE DECIDED TO SHUT DOWN AID, LARGELY TO FINANCE TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHY, IN THE U. S. AND ALSO, I SHOULD SAY, WE MEASURE THIS IN TERMS OF LIVES LOST.

BUT ASIDE FROM PEOPLE WHO DIE, THERE IS ALSO AN AWFUL LOT OF AID THAT SIMPLY IMPROVES WELL-BEING.

THAT HELPS GIRLS TO GO SCHOOL.

THAT DEWORMS CHILDREN.

WE DEWORM DOGS IN THE UNITED STATES.

YOU CAN DEWORM A CHILD FOR 50 CENTS A YEAR.

THEY'RE MORE ABLE TO WORK, TO STUDY, MORE LIKELY TO BECOME LITERATE.

AND THOSE PROGRAMS AREN'T EXACTLY LIFE- SAVING BUT BOY, THEY'RE SURE LIFE ENHANCING.

>> WE TALKED ABOUT HIV.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE PROGRAMS YOU HAD A CHANCE TO VISIT?

WHAT DID YOU WITNESS?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I SAW WAS A PROGRAM FOR MALNOURISHED CHILDREN.

AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE SEEN CHILDREN STARVING TO DEATH BUT IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS SHATTERING.

TYPICALLY, IT IS YOUNG KIDS IN THE FIRST FIVE YEARS OF LIFE.

OFTEN JUST AFTER THEY'VE BEEN WEANED.

THEY DON'T CRY.

BECAUSE THE BODY IS SAVING EVERY CALORIE.

EVERY BIT OF ENERGY TO KEEP THE MAJOR ORGANS FUNCTIONING.

SO THEY'RE ALMOST LIKE ZOMBIES.

EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE IN IMMENSE PAIN.

AND I WENT TO AN AREA THAT TRADITIONALLY HAD A MOBILE CLINIC GOING THERE TO BRING EMERGENCY FOOD RATIONS TO KEEP CHILDREN WHO WERE SEVERELY MALNOURISHED ALIVE.

A WEEK BEFORE, THAT WAS CUT OFF BECAUSE OF THE AID SHUTDOWN.

AND NOW IMMEDIATELY I FOUND A BUNCH OF CHILDREN WHO WERE SEVERELY ACUTELY MALNOURISHED.

NONE HAD DIED YET.

I'M SURE SOME OF THOSE WILL DIE.

AND MAYBE THE THING THAT JUST WOUNDED ME THE MOST, I WENT TO AN AREA IN THE NORTHWEST OF SOUTH SUDAN WHERE TRADITIONALLY, THERE HAD BEEN ALMOST NO HEALTH CARE.

AND WOMEN DIED IN CHILDBIRTH ROUTINELY.

AND NEWBORNS DIED AS WELL.

AND THEN IN DECEMBER, A U. S. -FUNDED MATERNITY CLINIC HAD OPENED UP THERE AND WAS SAVING WOMEN'S LIVES.

NOT ONE WOMAN HAD DIED SINCE THAT OPENED.

NOT ONE NEWBORN DIED.

AND I SHOW UP AND PEOPLE SEE ME, ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CLINIC.

THEY MISTAKENLY ASSUME I'M SOMEHOW RESPONSIBLE FOR BRINGING HEALTH CARE TO THIS PLACE.

AND THERE IS A WOMAN IN LABOR AND SHE WANTS TO NAME HER BABY AFTER ME.

THE VILLAGE ELDERS SHOW UP UNDER A MAHOGANY TREE OUTSIDE AND THEY EFUSIVELY THANK ME, THANK AMERICA.

THEY SAY WOMEN ARE NOW SAFE HERE.

WHAT THEY DON'T KNOW IS THAT THE U. S. HAD JUST CUT OFF THAT PROGRAM, AND THAT CLINIC WAS ABOUT TO CLOSE, AND THAT WOMEN AGAIN WERE GOING TO BE BLEEDING TO DEATH IN THAT DUST.

AND THAT JUST BROKE MY HEART.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS JUXTAPOSITION?

THE PEOPLE YOU WERE MEETING ON THE GROUND ARE SOME OF THE POOREST ON THE PLANET.

AND THE PERSON AT THIS MOMENT RESPONSIBLE FOR SOME OF THOSE CUTS IS LITERALLY THE RICHEST MAN ON THE PLANET.

AND I'M SPEAKING OF ELON MUSK.

>> I ASKED PEOPLE IN SOUTH SUDAN WHETHER THEY HAD HEARD OF ELON MUSK.

AND MOST HAD NOT.

WHICH IS A REFLECTION OF HOW REMOTE THE PLACE IS.

HOW LITTLE ACCESS THEY HAVE TO WORLD NEWS.

BUT WHAT I SAW WAS THESE FOLKS WHO WERE STRUGGLING WITH THEIR OWN HEALTH, WITH THEIR OWN ACCESS TO FOOD, WERE LOOKING AFTER VULNERABLE CHILDREN.

WHEN THEY COULDN'T GET MEDICATIONS, THEY WERE VOLUNTEERING ON THEIR OWN TIME TO TRY TO GET THEM TO THE HOSPITALS, TO TRY TO GET AID FOR THEM.

TO SEE FOLKS WHO HAVE NOTHING TRYING TO SHARE THEIR NOTHING WITH OTHER KIDS, WITH OTHER PEOPLE, WITH VULNERABLE PEOPLE, I FOUND KIND OF INSPIRING AND I WISH THAT WOULD INSPIRE THE WORLD'S RICHEST MAN AT A TIME WHEN HE IS DISMANTLING AMERICAN ASSISTANCE FOR SOME OF THE NEEDIEST PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.

>> ONE OF THE CRITIQUES THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS HAD IS THAT SO MUCH OF THE AID IS GOING TO INTERNATIONAL MIDDLEMEN.

WHERE IS THE SORT OF EXCESS COST IN DELIVERING THIS AID THROUGH THIS PIPELINE, AND EVEN DOWN TO THE LAST MILE?

>> I THINK THAT CRITIQUE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

YOU KNOW?

WAY TOO MUCH AID ENDS UP BEING DIGESTED BY THESE BELTWAY BANDIT COMPANY IN THE WASHINGTON AREA.

AND I THINK WE GET A LOT MORE BANG FOR THE BUCK IF MORE AID WERE GOING DIRECTLY TO NONPROFITS IN THESE VARIOUS PLACES IN THE WORLD.

AND USAID HAS RECOGNIZED THAT.

THERE HAS BEEN AN IMPROVEMENT IN PROVIDING DIRECT ASSISTANCE.

BUT IT IS STILL, I THINK THAT IS A VERY LEGITIMATE CRITIQUE.

I THINK IT IS A LEGITIMATE CRITIQUE THAT TRUMP AND MUSK HAVE MADE THAT A LOT OF AID ISN'T AS EFFECTIVE AS IT COULD BE.

THAT THE ORGANIZATION COULD USE REFORM.

BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS NOT REFORM.

IT'S NOT MAKING IT MORE EFFICIENT.

IT'S JUST TAKING A BULLDOZER TO IT AND KNOCKING IT DOWN.

>> JUST LAST WEEK, MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE, AND NOW ACTING USAID HEAD SAID AFTER A SIX- WEEK REVIEW, WE ARE OFFICIALLY CANCELING 83% OF THE PROGRAMS AT USAID.

THE 5,200 CONTRACTS NOW CANCELED SPENT TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN WAYS THAT DID NOT SERVE, AND IN SOME CASES EVEN HARMED THE CORE INTERESTS.

UNITED STATES.

THIS IS IN SPITE OF A JUDGE RULING AGAINST THE ADMINISTRATION THAT THESE ACTIONS WERE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

>> YEAH.

I THINK THAT THERE IS, YOU KNOW, A WIDESPREAD BELIEF THAT THE DISMANTLING OF USAID, AN INDEPENDENT AGENCY, WAS ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

I'M GLAD THE JUDGE INTERVENED IN THAT CASE.

HE RESTORED EMAIL TO PEOPLE ON ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE.

BUT HE DID NOT ACTUALLY RESTORE THOSE PROGRAMS.

AND I'M NOT SURE HOW FEASIBLE THAT ACTUALLY WILL BE.

AND MARCO RUBIO WAS SAYING THAT THESE WERE NOT IN AMERICA'S INTERESTS.

IN THE PAST, BEFORE SERVING IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HE MADE A VERY COMPELLING ARGUMENT THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SHOULD SUSTAIN OR EXTEND THESE PROGRAMS BECAUSE THEY WERE THE BEST WAY TO CHALLENGE CHINA, TO INFLUENCE AROUND THE WORLD, TO ADVANCE AMERICAN INTERESTS, NOT JUST OUR VALUES.

AND I WISH HE WOULD LISTEN TO WHAT HE HIMSELF HAD ADVISED IN THE PAST.

>> I THINK THERE'S ALSO SORT OF AN US VERSUS THEM FRAMING SOMETIMES.

LOOK, IN THE UNITED STATES, WE HAVE SOMEWHERE, ABOUT 36 MILLION AMERICANS WHO ARE LIVING IN POVERTY.

47 MILLION WHO ARE FOOD INSECURE.

SO WHEN THE ADMINISTRATION MAKES THE CASE THAT WE SHOULD BE FOCUSING ON ASSISTING OUR OWN CITIZENS FIRST, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT LINE OF THINKING?

>> I THINK WE CAN DO A LOT MORE FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS.

I'M RIGHT NOW IN A RURAL PART OF THE COUNTRY THAT HAS REAL NEEDS WITH ADDICTION.

BUT I WOULD NOTE THAT THE APPARENT PLAN FOR DISMANTLING USAID AND SAVING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IS NOT TO PUT THAT MONEY INTO SUPPORTING VETERANS OR FIGHTING ADDICTION.

RATHER, IT SEEMS TO BE TWO THINGS.

FIRST, A PREPARATORY EFFORT TO MAKE A RUN AT MEDICAID AND CUT FUNDING ON MEDICAID, AND PERHAPS SOCIAL SECURITY, AND THESE SAVINGS TOGETHER WOULD GO TO EXTEND THE TRUMP TAX CUTS, 49% OF WHICH GO TO THE TOP 5% OF AMERICANS.

SO A LOT OF THIS IS TAKING MONEY THAT IS KEEPING CHILDREN ALIVE FOR 12 CENTS A DAY, AND USING THAT TO FUND TAX CUTS FOR SOME OF THE WEALTHIEST AMERICANS.

BUT YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THIS IS ALSO KEEPING AMERICANS SAFE FROM EBOLA, FROM AVIAN FLU, FROM POLIO, FROM TUBERCULOSIS.

TUBERCULOSIS IS LIKELY TO SPREAD.

THE U. S. HAS BEEN A MAJOR FUNDER.

IN EVERY CASE, IT COSTS $500,000 TO TREAT.

IT'S A LOT CHEAPER TO DEAL WITH THOSE AND LIMIT THEIR SPREAD IN OTHER COUNTRIES RATHER THAN TO SPEND $500,000 A CASE TO DEAL WITH IT HERE.

>> YOU'VE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THESE TOPICS OF POVERTY AND GLOBAL HEALTH FOR LITERALLY DECADES NOW.

AND OFTENTIMES, YOU HAVE MADE IT A POINT TO FIND PEOPLE ON DIFFERENT SORTS OF ENDS OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM THAT CAN AGREE THAT THESE SHOULD BE IMPORTANT PRIORITIES FOR THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THOSE VOICES NOW?

ESPECIALLY ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE WHEN THEY SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING AND YET MAYBE JUST SIX MONTHS AGO, THEY, OR A YEAR OR TWO AGO, THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN VOCIFEROUS IN SUPPORT OF THESE PROGRAMS CONTINUING.

>> AS YOU SUGGEST, THERE ARE A LOT OF BLEEDING HEART CONSERVATIVES AS WELL AS BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS.

AND THE EVANGELICAL RIGHT HAS DONE HEROIC WORK THIS ISSUE ALONG WITH THE SECULAR LIBERALS.

AND I THINK THAT THESE FOLKS STILL CARE ABOUT THESE ISSUES.

I THINK THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO DEEPLY CARE ABOUT THIS, WHO ARE EMBARRASSED ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING.

I THINK THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT BEING PRIMARIED.

I THINK THEY'RE INTIMIDATED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP'S INCLINATION, AND ELON MUSK'S TENDENCY TO BULLY PEOPLE, TO ANNOUNCE THEM ONLINE.

AND SO THEY SAY THEY'RE TRYING TO WORK BEHIND THE SCENES.

AID GROUPS, INCLUDING CHRISTIAN AID GROUPS, ARE NERVOUS IF THEY SPEAK OUT, THAT THEY'LL THEN BE REVENGE ATTACKS ON THEM AND LOSE MORE FUNDING AND HURT MORE PEOPLE.

I HAVE TO SAY IN REPORTING THIS STORY, I TALKED TO A LOT OF AID GROUPS.

AND IT REMINDED ME OF MY DAYS REPORTING IN CHINA THAT PEOPLE WERE SO SCARED TO SPEAK.

THEY WERE SO SCARED TO USE EMAIL.

AND IT'S KIND OF SAD WHEN GROUPS THAT ARE TRULY DOING THE LORD'S WORK ARE AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE GREAT STUFF THAT AMERICA DOES, SAVING LIVES AROUND THE WORLD.

>> YOU HAD SOME COMPELLING STORIES THAT YOU WROTE.

SINCE YOU'VE BEEN BACK, HAVE YOU HAD ANY UPDATES ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TOFULLY OF THOSE CHILDREN?

>> I'VE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH WHATSAPP.

MOSTLY THEY ARE FORMER SOCIAL WORKERS IN THE EFFORT TO HELP THE CHILDREN AND THEY WERE LAID OFF.

THEY'RE STILL TRYING TO DO WHAT THEY CAN ON THEIR OWN TO KEEP PROGRAMS GOING.

YOU KNOW, UNFORTUNATELY, THE UPSHOT IS KIDS GETTING MORE SICK.

IT TAKES A WHILE FOR SOMEBODY WHEN THEY AREN'T GETTING THEIR HIV MEDICATION TO GET MORE SICK.

WHEN PEOPLE AREN'T GETTING FOOD, TO GET MORE MALNOURISHED.

FOR AN INFECTION TO COME ALONG.

BUT THAT IS LAPPING.

SO WHAT I'M HEARING IS THERE WILL BE A REAL TIDE OF DISEASE AND MORTALITY IN THE COMING MONTHS.

>> COLUMNIST FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES. "

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> A REPORT FROM THE FRONT LINES THERE.

> >> AND FINALLY, WITH THE ARRIVAL OF THE SPRING SOLSTICE, MILLIONS OF IRANIANS WORLDWIDE ARE CELEBRATING THE NEW YEAR, OR NOWRUZ.

DESPITE THE RISING REGIONAL TENSIONS, RAYS OF LIFE ARE STILL SEEPING THROUGH.

THE CULTURE THAT SEEKS TO HUMANIZE AND EDUCATE ABOUT A PEOPLE AND THEIR ANCIENT HERITAGE.

ON BROADWAY RIGHT NOW, THE SONG OF THE NORTH IS BRINGING TO LIFE THE LEGENDARY BOOK OF KINGS.

NEARLY 500 PUPPETS PLAY TO PACKED THEATERS ACROSS THREE CONTINENTS SHOWING HOW HEART AND CULTURE CAN BRIDGE POLITICAL RIFTS.

HAPPY NOWRUZ, HAPPY SPRING SOLSTICE TO ALL WHO CELEBRATE.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT MORE, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS LETTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.