- !

Spending in state senate races.

- hits unprecedented levels.

- Plus, a report finds some.

- Vermont candidates are - flouting campaign finance.

- laws and a clash over school construction aid.

- All that and more ahead.

- on Vermont This Week.

- From the Vermont Public.

- Studio in Winooski, this is Vermont This Week.

- Made possible in part by.

- the Lintilhac Foundation and Milne Travel.

- Here's moderator.

- Mitch Wertlieb.

- Hi, I'm Mitch Wertlieb.

- It's Friday, July 31st, and -with us on the panel today - we have Peter Hirschfeld.

- from Vermont Public, - Alison Novak from Seven.

- Days, and Colin Flanders, also from Seven Days.

- Thank you all so.

- much for being here.

- Well, we got a.

- primary coming up.

- We're about to hit the month.

- of August, so August 11th -is Vermont's, uh, primary, -and with that comes news - about unprecedented spending.

- In state Senate races.

- Uh, Colin, you wrote.

- a story about this.

- Uh, kind of remarkable.

- seeing some of these - numbers out of our little.

- state of Vermont here.

- Uh, you wrote that several.

- other Senate challengers - are on pace to raise.

- amounts that would've been unheard of 10 years ago.

- Tell us about these numbers.

- we're looking at here.

- Yeah, so the, uh, we.

- took a look at campaign - finance, uh, disclosures.

- of this past cycle, so we're up through July.

- The next one is August.

- 1st, and we'll probably - see even higher numbers.

- And what's really standing -!

Out is, yeah, money is pouring - into these races that I think.

- 20, 30 years ago probably - would've been spent maybe.

- four, five 10 would've been a lot in some of these races.

- Um, but now candidates.

- are saying that they need - a sizable piggy bank so.

- that they can really run -a formidable campaign, -especially when they're -challenging an incumbent, -which all of these high - dollar amounts that we're.

- seeing are challengers from - p-people who are trying to.

- !

Break through into the Senate, - and that's historically a.

- really difficult thing to do, - especially in a place like.

- Chittenden County where up - until recently there was one.

- big district, six people, - incumbents carried a lot of.

- weight, and they still do here in Vermont, as we know.

- Um, and so these candidates.

- are throwing money at - everything they can think of.

- to try to get their message - out and get their name out.

- there, and I think anyone who - lives in Chittenden County.

- !

Will understand this when they - go and check their mailbox.

- I mean, they are just- -Mm flooded with these, um, !

campaign flyers and postcards.

- Um, and I think the.

- big question is whether - it's really gonna make.

- much of a difference.

- Yeah, that's, that, that.

- Is the big question.

- And, you know, 'tis.

- the season, as you say.

- We are getting flooded with.

- campaign ads, and people are !

getting texted here and there.

Uh, it, it's, it's a lot.

-You have an example of, uh, -someone running for state, -uh, Senate, a Democrat, -Nikhil Goyal, um, and, - you know, we're looking at.

- at least $138,000 I guess that he's already spent.

That's a lot of money.

- Um, tell us a little bit.

- about this particular - candidate and why you.

- chose to write about him.

-Yeah, so Nikhil Goyal, -he's raised $138,000.

- He hasn't spent all of that.

- money-Okay but he still -has a lot of money to spend, -and, and there's some time - between now and the primary.

- I think the question is -how much is that he's - uh, how much is he.

- gonna go through.

- Um, what was interesting.

- about Nikhil is that this is his first race.

He's a younger guy.

- He's 31.

-Um, but, and he's.

- pretty well-connected.

-He used to, he was a s- -advisor for Bernie Sanders.

- But, um, I think that he.

- has been leveraging some of - these connections that he has.

- !

Nationally, which is something - that we don't always see in.

- these local Senate races.

- A big chunk of his funding.

- has come from, uh, has - followed an endorsement from.

- an organization that promotes.

South Asian candidates.

- He's the son of Indian.

- Immi-immigrants.

- And so these are people.

- who don't even know him - !

personally, but are supportive.

- of the idea of someone of his - !

identity serving in an elected.

- office, and I think that - that's something we're not.

- !

Used to seeing as much-Mm-hmm - in these more local races.

- where I talked to some former - long-term, uh, senators in.

- Vermont who said that they - used to get by on a couple.

- thousand bucks and go into some strawberry socials.

-And now-Oh, boy Nikhil, -um, to his credit, is - running what seems to be a.

- very professional campaign.

- If you log onto YouTube and.

- try to watch a video, chances - are you're gonna see one of.

- his ads pop across, and it - looks like something you'd.

- see in a national race.

-It's very well-produced, -and, uh, I think, I, I - think there is a question.

- of whether that kind of, - um, campaign plays well on a.

- local level, whether people - respond to it or whether they.

- might shy away and wonder - w-well, why are we, why are.

- we turning this into such a - professional-feeling thing?

- Yeah, I wanna open this -discussion up here, but I do - wanna mention that one of the.

- things you pointed out was -that, uh, Goyal himself, uh, -makes no apologies for this.

- He says, "Look, this is what.

- I have to do to get my name !

out there and be competitive."

- And he's not alone.

- I mean, we talked to, uh, -a few other people as well.

- The candidates who are.

- raising this amount of money - say that this is what it.

- takes in today's day and - age, and there is some truth.

- to it, where printing costs are up, advertising is up.

- There isn't as many central.

- newspapers, and so they're - spending a lot more money.

- trying to get around and - get their name out there.

- But, um, I think some of the -incumbents, it ma-it is a - bit of a convenient argument.

- to make as an incumbent, - where you don't have to.

- spend that much money to - get your name out there.

- !

Um, but I think there is a bit -of tension of how much money - do you actually need, how.

- many postcards, how many lawn - signs, um, before you really.

- run out of things to do with.

- And does it work?

-Well, I was talking to.

- a former senate majority - leader who, uh, consulted.

- with some Democratic - challengers who wanted.

- to step up to the plate.

- Her advice to all of them.

- was, "You need to raise at" - "least $60,000."

So I think.

- the writing-Mm has been - on the wall, um, that it.

- Is gonna be more expensive - to get your name out.

-These are much.

- bigger districts than house districts.

- Um, and what's, what's.

- Interesting, and as you - noted in your story, is.

- that there are a lot of - incumbents that are facing.

- pretty stiff challenges in - some instances that have.

- either chosen not to raise - a lot of money or are not.

- able to raise a lot of money.

- Um, there's a challenger.

- In the Windsor district - who's raised almost.

- $60,000 as of July 1st.

- That's about 10 times.

- as much as is two, as - the two incumbents in.

- that district combined.

-And I think for a lot of- -S-senate candidates and - senators, um, they look in.

- the mirror and they see maybe a future governor, right?

- Hmm.

-And so I think i-a lot of.

- this is about building the - kind of coalition that you.

- need at the outset of your - political career so that you.

- can build a trajectory that, - that might lead to a place.

- where you could succeed on a - statewide level and, and that.

- of course is always gonna involve a lot of fundraising.

-And on the flip side, -I will say that the - concern that some of the.

- Incumbents are flagging, - I think it's twofold.

- It's one, I think a lot of -it is, is the, the personal - stake they have in this.

- They're seeing a lot of money -get spent to take them out.

- But, um, there is also a.

- concern that for the next - wave of senators, for the.

- next 31-year-old who's - thinking, "Maybe I would like.

- to throw my name in there," -and then you look and see, -well, the last time that - somebody broke through, they.

- spent $100,000 or it took - them that much to raise that.

- much, and you think, "I don't - have friends or know people.

- who have that much money."

- Uh, I think there is a.

- !

Concern that it could dissuade some people from running.

- !

Yeah, you know, the only thing.

- I wonder about, again, is how - do we know if spending that.

- much money actually works?

- Has there been.

- any studies yet?

- 'Cause there are some.

- people who have spent some - money and just the outcome.

- hasn't been there for them.

- Yeah, it's a little hard.

- because the two of the bigger - spender- or spenders in.

- at least Chittenden County - over the last 20, 25 years.

- were both moderate to more - right-leaning Democrats who.

- !

Don't play as well regardless.

-I think that it is really, -really hard to know, and the - candidates themselves will.

- admit, uh, a lot of it is - just, like, putting stuff.

- out into the void, and then - you show up on election day.

- and you find out the results.

-Without any polling, uh, -it's really hard to tell.

- How much of this is Citizens.

- United just doing its job?

-Remember 2010 when, uh, -campaigns, you know, - finance laws became a.

- lot less restrictive?

- Is that what we're.

- seeing here in Vermont?

- Well, I talked to a political.

- science professor from.

- Middlebury who made the point.

- that the concern here isn't - as much sort of like the.

- Hollywood version of people - getting a big check, and then.

- six months later they'll go vote in the Senate-Mm-hmm - in a certain way.

- That I-it's a-that's not as -much Here what we're really - seeing is these are allies of.

- these people throwing money - because they support it.

- So that's what's really -interesting to us as - journalists and to the.

- public is you look at the campaign disclosure forms.

- You see who's donating.

- You get a sense of what -type of candidate is this.

Who are they reaching out to?

- What is their-where is.

- their message resonating?

You see a lot of landlords.

That tells you one thing.

-Mm-hmm.

-You see a lot of grassroots, -um, 5 to 10, $20 bills.

- That tells you -something as well.

- Well, to your point, you do -see, uh, the, the campaign - !

finance, uh, where, where this.

- Is coming, but not always, - right, Pete Hirschfeld?

- Because you found that -there's a new report out -that's saying that there -are - in Vermont that are flouting.

- campaign finance laws.

- How big a problem is this?

- Well, according to the -Secretary of State's office, - one in five of the more.

- than 400 candidates that - are running for office.

- this cycle have not filed - the legally required.

- disclosure paperwork with the.

Secretary of State's office.

- Um, a lot of this is due to a.

- new law that passed just, uh, - !

last, site last year, um, that.

- !

requires candidates to file an - affidavit with the Secretary.

- of State if they've raised or spent less than $500.

- Previously, you didn't.

- have to file anything.

- Mm-hmm.

-And I reached out to.

- a number of lawmakers, - incumbent lawmakers who.

- didn't file-anything.

-And they said, "Well, I, -I didn't raise or spend" - "$500."

So the, the news.

- hasn't reached them yet.

- Okay.

-Um, and i- and, and at other.

- Instances, uh, there are - people who still struggle.

- to use the campaign finance - system, notwithstanding.

- considerable efforts by - the Secretary of State's.

- office to, uh, make that as user-friendly as possible.

- I reached out to the.

- Attorney General's office, - which is the entity that's.

- responsible for enforcing campaign finance violations.

- Um, they generally only.

- launch an investigation when - somebody brings an alleged.

- violation to their attention.

- They say the vast majority.

- of the time that when - they do, uh, reach out to.

- somebody who's in violation, - they're eager to voluntarily.

- come into compliance.

- But, but there are instances.

- In which, um, those - investigations have, have.

- led to financial sanctions.

- What's the concern here?

- Why, why is the Secretary of -!

State's office u-upset about, - about this to some extent?

- Well, I think th-the -underlying thesis here -is that when people, um, -invest in a candidate, they - are hoping to, uh, get a.

- return on that investment.

- And I think they feel like.

- that's especially true when - !

it's a corporate entity that's.

- making a contribution, and - they feel like Vermonters.

- deserve transparency so that - they know who it is that's.

- Investing in these candidates - and understand, uh, what it.

- Is Those entities might want - in return, um, for, for those.

- contributions if a candidate - gets into office and has to.

- make some decisions related to that particular field.

-All right.

-Appreciate your update.

-on that story, Pete.

-Uh, Allison Novak, I -wanna move on to a story that you wrote about.

- It's kinda fascinating.

- because, uh, we have been - seeing these sort of things.

- happen, uh, in the state of.

- Vermont for a while now, a.

- lot of older buildings in the state, including schools.

-Mm-hmm.

-And you wrote about, uh, -in Woodstock, Mountain.

-View Supervisory Union, -they wanna rebuild their middle, their high school.

- Voters said, "Absolutely."

- $112 million bond passed.

- Great.

-They're gonna fix.

- the school, right?

Not so fast.

What happened?

- Right.

-So this school, this.

- Is the high school for.

- Mountain View's that's.

- b-that's in Woodstock.

- It serves middle and high.

- school students actually.

- 70 years old, so this school.

- Is in really bad shape.

- Uh, you know, failing.

- pipes, the boiler just -broke, um, the, uh, -ceiling is sinking in.

And so they passed this bond.

- They'd been This has.

- been in the works for - about 10 years they've been.

- trying-Mm to get money to build a new school.

- As we know, the state.

- hasn't, um, chipped in - for school, uh, state aid.

- for school construction in, I think, 16 years.

- There's been a.

- moratorium since 2008.

- They passed a bond, um, in.

- March, um, and con-there was a contingency in that bond.

- So it basically said that.

- 25% of the cost of the - $112 million bond had.

- to be paid for either by - private donations and/or.

- state or federal money.

- And the reason they did.

- this was they, you know, - they had had a failed bond.

- a couple years before, and - they talked to voters, and.

- voters said, "You know", -we don't think that, like, -our local community should - have to bear the brunt of.

- this construction.

We want - "the state to chip in."

And.

- I think there were signs - that the state was going.

- to kind of s-restart the school construction program.

- Act 73, which was passed.

- last year, calls for the -s-restarting of the, -the state aid for school - construction fund, although.

- there's not a dedicated source for that money yet.

- Okay.

-Um, so essentially what.

- happened is Mountain View's -has a shovel-ready pro- -project, they're ready to -get going, and they said, -"We're gonna ask the Agency -of Education for kind of, uh, -preliminary approval so we -can start getting permits, -ready, get the ball rolling."

- !

So they've been trying to meet.

- with the Agency of Education -for the last, you know, -!

Couple months, and the agency, -according to Mountain View, -has kind of blown them off.

- Mm.

Um, and essentially what.

- the Agency of Education says - !

is, "We have to make rules for.

- this new state aid for school" - construction, um, process for.

- how schools are gonna apply.

- !

That's gonna take us about two.

- years. "

Mm. "

And until then, - we can't give any schools.

- approval for building."

- That's a little scary because.

- what they're telling, uh, - th-these kids who go to.

- Woodstock, right, at the, at - the school is that, well, for.

- !

Another two years you're gonna - have to be in that school.

- Is it safe for them -to be in that school?

- Um, I mean, I think that.

- the, uh, school officials at.

Mountain Views would say no.

- When I talk to them, they're.

- very worried that things are - gonna get to the point where.

- they're gonna have to start -!

putting trailers on the field, -the football field, which is - actually the site for the new.

- !

School that they have planned.

-And essentially they're, -you know, they're throwing -a lot of money away, um, -by doing all these kind of - fixes to the building, that.

- they are saying, like, "We - don't wanna be doing this.

- because this building is at -the end of its, you know, -useful life.

We don't wanna - !

be throwing millions in to fix.

- a boiler, to do things like - "that, and, um, we wanna get.

- !

Started with this new school."

- Um, the agency says, you.

- know, you shouldn't have - written the contingency into.

- the bond saying that, you - know, it was going, that.

- It had to be reliant on getting aid, outside aid.

- So they're kind of blaming.

- Mountain Views, and Mountain.

- Views is not very happy.

- with that, with that stance.

- And one of the dynamics.

- that's at play here is we're - seeing Montpelier try to.

- !

Seize control of local schools from communities, right?

- In some form or.

- fashion, at some scale.

- And, uh, one of the ways they.

- !

Thought they could do that was !

force school district mergers.

- That didn't work.

- Another way they have planned -is a f-foundation formula, -!

where the state would discide- -decide school budgeting.

- It's unclear whether that.

- will come to pass or not.

- But state aid for school.

- construction is another - key tool they have to.

- sort of, uh, have a, a, a - statewide view on what's.

- happening at the local level.

- And if they can w-sort of.

- wield this state money, um, - in ways that result in a more.

- unified school construction - approach, um, I think they.

- feel like they can get to - a place where they have.

- re-comprehensive regional - high schools, which is one.

- of the things they want.

- Yeah.

-They don't want each.

- district willy-nilly making - decisions o-o-on their.

- own about who's gonna have a new school and who's not.

- !

They want that to be part of a.

- !

broader statewide conversation - about where strategically.

- should we have these, these really great schools.

- And, and the holding the.

- purse strings for, for - school construction is one.

- tool they have to do that.

- Right.

-But now the voluntar-that.

- mergers are voluntary, right?

- I think what a lot of.

- school districts are saying is like, "We can't wait."

- We have a failing.

- building right now.

- We can't wait years until.

- a future state that the.

- Agency of Education might.

- be hoping to achieve.

-We need to kind of imme- -meet the immediate needs "of our students now."

- And I've written in the past.

- about the tension between - the Agency of Education.

- and educators in the field.

- Mm-hmm.

-And I think this school.

- construction issue is a good -example of how, you know, -uh, school districts are - !

feeling like the state and the.

- Agency of Education doesn't really have their back.

- Um, they have not.

- contributed to school construction in 16 years.

-And schools, you know, are, -are failing, and they want - to feel like the Agency of.

- Education is working to help - them, not kind of working.

- against them or blaming them for having an old school, so.

- Do have a clarification.

- question here-Mm-hmm - !

Allison Novak, 'cause you were.

- saying that, um, the AOE was - saying that this contingency.

- that, that, uh, the Woodstock - folks built in Is that.

- the crux of the problem?

- If they had not built in.

- that contingency, would they - be able to get this school.

- built, uh, right away?

- I mean, I think.

- that's unclear.

-I think, um, you know, -there's no other kind - of s-project, a school.

- project right now that's ready to go like Woodstock.

- So I think it's unclear how.

- the agency would kind of - approach another project.

- that was ready to go.

- But I do think what the.

- agency is saying is, like, - this was, uh, this is.

- kind of the mistake you - made, that you wrote this.

- contingency into your bond.

- Um, and they're basically.

- saying, "It's unlawful for" - us to, you know, sign off on.

- your project when we still - have rules to make.

The.

- legislature has, um, directed - us to make these rules, and.

- we have until March 2020 "20-2028 to make the rules."

-And so they're saying, -like, "We can't, we can't help you right now."

Wow.

- Yeah.

-Mountain View doesn't.

- have, like, a Macy's that they could use?

-Uh, no Macy's.

Yeah, yeah.

Worked so well in Burlington.

- Sure.

-Yeah, yeah.

- It also makes me think, -too, about, you know, we - saw that that situation.

- that North Country had to, - to put up w-where they.

- had to put tents because - of the asbestos problems.

- they were having there.

Yeah, mm-hmm.

I-See, PCBs.

- PCBs.

-Yeah.

-I'm sorry, yes.

-Yeah, yeah.

- You know, I mean, that, -you know, there, it -just seems like this is - And I think, you know, there.

- was a assessment done of the - facili-school facilities.

- In Vermont a couple years -ago that showed there's, -like, $6 billion in deferred - maintenance in all the -school buildings in Vermont.

- A lot of them were built, you -know, 50, 60, 70 years ago.

- Yeah.

-And I don't think buildings.

- are really meant to last as long as they have.

- And so schools are, you.

- know, like patching things, - trying to kind of, uh, you.

- know, keep things afloat, - and it does feel like this.

- Is only gonna get kind of - worse until we figure out.

- how to start putting money - toward our schools, yeah.

- Well, there's another -!

Situation with education that - that's worrisome right now.

- !

Pete Hirschfeld, you were, uh, -!

Writing about this, where the, - !

uh, US Department of Education.

- Is saying that Vermont needs - not just assistance, but.

- needs intervention now in - dealing with outcomes for.

- students with disabilities.

What is the problem here?

- Well, the problem is that.

- based on, uh, Agency of.

-Education's most recent data, -which is not actually that - recent, um, the percentage.

- of students with disabilities - who are proficient in math.

- and reading, um, in some - instances across grade.

- levels ranges from single digits to low teens.

Not good numbers.

- Not, not good numbers.

- And-and when we're talking -about special education, this is not like a niche thing.

- One in five Vermont students.

- are on individualized education plans.

- Wow.

-So-so this is a huge-Mm.

- !

proportion of the overall, um, !

student population in Vermont.

- Um, so DOE flagged.

- those outcomes.

- They also, uh, flagged.

- some issues with data, and - the quality of data, and.

- the way it was b-in which it was being transmitted.

- And, you know, I talked.

- to some folks in the - field, special education.

- administrators, legal - advocates, um, and they.

- pointed the finger at AOE in -large part, and they said, -"We've had sort of a vacuum - of leadership in special.

- education at the top, at - the Agency of Education over.

- the last half-decade or so."

- Um, the top special education.

- position at the agency has been vacant since January.

- Um, Agency of Education.

- said th-they're right.

-We-we have had some issues, -um, leadership issues.

- They say they're prioritizing.

- that, that they're working to resolve it.

- Um, but, uh, a lot of people.

- In the field looking for - some outside help at AOE.

- to-to get this right.

- What's the risk here for.

- the state of Vermont?

Um, it's not enormous.

- Uh, I think worst case.

- !

Scenario, uh, the-the federal - government could withhold.

- about two and a half million - dollars a year from Vermont.

- !

If it doesn't get these scores up over the next three years.

- !

In the scheme of the education.

- budget, that's not huge.

- Um, and DOE has actually.

- never imposed financial - sanctions for violations.

- of this sort before.

- But I th-I think the bigger.

- Issue is not what the penalty.

-Vermont is going to get, -um, but the futures of kids - who are, uh, in many cases.

- not getting the education - they need to fulfill.

- their academic and pr- and - professional potential.

- And is there any kind -of deadline here, Pete?

- Uh, you said three years.

- they've, they've got to make - this improvement?

- I-if, if, if they, if they -are, m-you know, what this - rating means is that, that.

- Vermont is failing to, uh, - meet 60% of the standards.

- In the Individuals with, uh, Disabilities Education Act.

- If they, if they can't get up.

- above 60 perfe-percent for - three consecutive years, then.

- Vermont faces the prospect of financial sanctions.

-Okay.

-Uh, speaking of financial, -uh, situations, state revenues are holding steady.

- Uh, is there any good news.

- or any clouds looming on - the horizon here, Pete?

- Well, a lot of lawmakers -were bracing for a - downgrade, right?

- I mean, we've had a pretty -chaotic and uncertain economy - !

for a number of years now, and.

- I think p-folks are sort of waiting for the shoe to drop.

- Um, we've not seen that.

- happen yet, though.

-Economists say, uh, -notwithstanding all these - headwinds, Vermont is on.

- pretty strong economic - footing, and that we can.

- expect to get the state - revenues, um, that we had.

- been expecting for the next two or three years.

-There are looming risks, -!

However, and, and one of those interestingly is AI, um-Huh - which accounts for about.

- 75% of stock market valuation gains since 2022.

- Um, those gains are fueling.

- a lot of personal income - tax revenue for people that.

- are vested in the market.

- It's als-also fueling.

- consumption taxes for people - that are feeling flush and.

- spending some of those gains.

- And if that AI sector.

- Is indeed a bubble, as -some people fear it is, -uh, economists for the - legislature and the, the.

- Scott administration say, - um, Vermont could be in.

- some real choppy waters.

- Is there an over-reliance.

- right now on AI in Vermont?

- Um, we The, the, the entire.

- economy is extraordinarily - highly leveraged in AI right.

- now-Mm um, just because - of the, the value that it.

- represents in our economy.

- Um, one economist said.

- to me, um, "We are-we're - all taking this bet on AI.

- whether we wanna be or not."

- Okay, that's the scariest.

- quote I've heard- in - quite some time.

-But, uh, thank you for.

- giving us the update on that.

- Allison Novak, you wrote.

- a really interesting story - in Seven Days that, that.

- Immediately I related to - because I have seen what.

- you were writing about here.

-In my own neighborhood, -uh, there are kids -that ride around on, -on e-bikes and e-motos, and I want you-Mm-hmm -to explain the difference -between those things.

- Yeah.

- What, what struck me about -this is that, you know, -it's a residential area, -they're going pretty - A lot of these kids are not.

- wearing helmets, and they !

don't look all that old to me.

-Um-Yeah, yeah 10, -10 to 12 years old here.

- What's going on?

- Yeah, so I think e-motos and -e-bikes to some extent have - kind of exploded on the scene.

- In Vermont in the last year.

- Um, the way I got the tip.

- for the story was in May.

- !

A crossing guard in Burlington.

- said, "You know, I'm seeing" - these kids, like, going to.

- and from school on these - e-bikes and e-scooters, and.

- they aren't wearing helmets, - "-and they're not obeying the.

- rules of the road."

Anyhow, - I think there's two kind of.

- separate pro-uh, problems.

- So there's younger kids, kids.

- !

As I-young as 9 and 10 riding - these e-bikes and e-scooters.

- without helmets, um, which, - you know, I think crossing.

- guards, schools are pretty, !

um, pretty-Uh, nervous about.

-Um, as well as these e-motos, -which So a e-bike has a wattage of 750 watts maximum.

- These e-motos can have.

- wattage up to 6,000 or 6,500 watts of power.

- So they can go up to.

- 50, 55 miles per hour.

- These are vehicles that in.

- Vermont state law, they are banned for kids under 16.

- You're not allowed to.

- ride them if you're under - 16, and you have to be.

- registered with the state.

- But they've kind of.

- exploded on the scene.

-Younger teens, 13, -!

14-year-olds are getting them.

- I met a couple 14-year-olds.

- on the Burlington bike -path riding these e- -very powerful e-motos.

- There's signs now on.

- the Burlington bike path -that say, "No e-motos," -but they didn't seem too bothered by those signs.

- They didn't really feel.

- like there was gonna -be much, uh, you know, -repercussions for them.

- And I think that's part.

- of this, um, kind of thing - that communities in South.

- Burlington, Colchester, - Burlington are struggling.

- with, how to enforce the -existing laws around these, -um, very powerful, dangerous - vehicles, um, and, you.

- know, also spread awareness.

- In South Burlington, I talked.

- to a police sergeant who - said, you know, they've been.

- !

Pulling kids over riding these - e-motos and, you know, giving.

- them a little education.

- They've gone into.

- schools to talk to kids.

- Um, and so I think that's.

- kind of how they're handling - it now, although, um, they.

- did say that in some cases - they have issued tickets.

- to kids who have repeatedly -been riding these, um, -e-motos in unsafe ways.

- So it's, um, it's something.

- that, you know, the American.

-Academy of Pediatrics has, -um, basically says that - kids under 12 should not be.

- riding e-bikes, um, and has a -number of different kind of, -uh guidelines for parents.

- Um, so I think it's really.

- about education at this - point, making sure parents.

- !

Understand what they're buying for their young, young kids.

Yeah Yeah, -and I suggest folks read the -article in Seven Days, 'cause -you explain really well the -difference between - these-Mm-hmm uh, these.

- motorized vehicles for sure.

-Uh, briefly, Colin Flanders, -there's a Chittenden County.

- Sheriff's Democratic primary.

- coming up with a veteran, - uh, Dan Gamalin, uh, facing.

- a newcomer, Kevin Bloom.

- Uh, what are the issues here?

- Where, what's the differences -between these two candidates?

- Yeah, uh, so Dan Gamalin.

- Is a career deputy, -started his career, um, -shortly after becoming a - police officer, joined the.

- Chittenden County Sheriff's.

- Department, has been there.

- for 40 years as, as a cop.

- Uh, Kevin Bloom is a.

- musician, uh, has never -worked in law enforcement, -does not own a gun.

- Um, these two candidates.

- could not be more different, - and Kevin's campaign is.

- Interestingly, uh, based - around the idea of eviction.

- reform, which is kind of a, - a somewhat kooky idea for.

- a sheriff who is charged - with, uh, carrying out.

- court-ordered evictions.

-But in Kevin's mind, -that this is the perfect - place to be implementing.

- some of these ideas.

- Uh, the main idea is a rental.

- relief program that would be - !

based around connecting people.

- !

facing eviction with employers who desperately need workers.

- Uh, I think the big question.

- Is whether that could ever get off the ground.

Kevin swears it could.

- Um, and Dan Gamalin says.

- that this position is better - filled by someone who has.

- law enforcement experience.

- And so it's kind of a test.

- of, uh, how much the public - wants to be using some of.

- these public safety offices - as experiments, as a, as a.

- way to try some of these more - progressive ideas, and we'll.

- have to see how it plays out.

- Well, you just explained.

- to me beautifully.

- Now I understand what.

- those lawn signs mean-Yeah - now when I see.

- them on the street.

- Thank you so much for.

- that, Colin Flanders.

- I just wanna mention.

- briefly that tomorrow, - uh, the USL-2 championship.

- In soccer is happening.

- Vermont Green FC could win.

- back-to-back championships.

- They are taking on Flint.

- City, uh, the Flint City.

Bucks in Michigan tomorrow.

- That game will be.

- on WCAX at 7:30 PM.

- Gotta leave it there.

- Thanks to our panel today, -Peter Hirschfeld from Vermont.

- Public, Allison Novak from.

- Seven Days, Colin Flanders from Seven Days as well.

Go Green.

- I'm Mitch Wertlieb.

-See you next week.

- for Vermont This.

Week.