At his briefing this week, Governor Scott said many Vermonters have lost faith in their criminal justice system, and he wants prosecutors and judges to impose stricter criminal sanctions on alleged repeat offenders.

John two, public doesn't understand what we're doing, and they think something's wrong with the system.

We're trying to address that.

Plus, the new group of power players will lobby for housing policy in Montpelier and the Public Utility Commission issues highly anticipated proposed rules for the Clean Heat standard.

That and more ahead on Vermont this Week.

From the Vermont Public studio in Winooski.

This is Vermont this Week, made possible in part by the Lintilhac Foundation and Milne Travel.

Here's moderator Mitch Wertlieb.

Thanks so much for being with us.

I'm Mitch Wertlieb.

It's Friday, January 17th and joining us on the panel today.

We have Anne Wallace Allen from Seven Days, Ethan Weinstein from VTDigger and Stephen Biddix from NBC5.

Thank you everyone so much for being here.

Well we're going to start at the top with what we heard Governor Scott talking about really coming out swinging this week about the issue of crime.

And Stephen, I know you've been reporting on this.

What is the governor saying about what's wrong with the system right now in his view?

So Governor Scott is basically calling it a catch and release system in Vermont right now.

I was getting some deja vu listening at this press conference to many things he talked about last year.

He mentioned a lot of the same issues with repeat offenders as we've heard in recent times.

He also rolled out a couple of different items in his package that he wants to look at to improve public safety across the state, whether that's limiting the power of judges to being able to reduce or suspend sentences for people that have more than one violent crime attached to them.

Also, repealing the Raise the Age initiative, which has been very big in the Montpelier bubble political bubble for the past couple years, is that it's continue to get delayed.

But the governor is saying as he was going around Vermont once again campaigning in November, just public safety, public safety, whether it was Vermont's smallest rural towns or the bigger cities like Burlington, people just don't feel safe, he says.

The raise the age issue.

Can you briefly describe what he's talking about there?

Yeah.

So with Raise the Age, it was passed multiple legislatures ago where certain age groups would move up and then those charges would be moved to the juvenile courts.

For example, the most latest one was supposed to be for 19 year olds last year.

That got delayed, that once again is supposed to be kicked in in April of this year.

And so instead of asking for another delay, he's just asking for a complete repeal.

Now you have Democratic leader.

Those leaders, though, that have been very dead set, that they think there's evidence that show that this system works and they really want it against Scott's beliefs.

So the governor's really saying, like, you know, if there aren't strict penalties for people who commit crimes and they're back out on the streets, what incentive is for them is there for them to not commit these crimes?

But, Ethan Winston, you've been writing about this as well.

And there are some concerns, about what lawmakers can and cannot do, when it comes to Vermont's constitution, because there are some pretty strict narrow rules there as well.

Right?

It it gets you into the weeds very quickly.

But, it's going to be really important this legislative session.

You know, one of the things that Stephen mentions is the administration wants to do more to expand when judges can take bail away for a, person charged with a crime.

I spoke to Representative Martin Leland, who chairs the House Judiciary Committee.

He was saying, you know, he thinks lawmakers have gone as far as they can on that and that there's constitutional, rules that might make it difficult to expand that any further.

I know another aspect of what the governor is proposing is that, he wants to move certain trials for young adults from the family division to the Criminal division, but he wants to keep them secret.

And, my understanding is that Connecticut tried something similar, and a federal appeals court actually found that it was unconstitutional.

So we're still yet to hear the full case that the governor's legal team is going to make.

But it's going to be interesting what they're allowed to do.

Absolutely.

It'll be interesting to see what they can and cannot do.

A lot of this is tied to property crime, right?

Yeah.

I mean, that was one of the, areas that the governor has, highlighted in particular.

You know, they cited a lot of data that showed, crimes like shoplifting, theft from a vehicle, theft of vehicles.

These are up more than 100% since 2018.

So they have some really serious data, but they're also I thought it was interesting when the governor was unveiling these proposals and when his team has talked about them, since then, they've they've brought up a lot the media coverage of these repeat offenders or, media coverage of property crime.

And so it almost seems like what, what is a public safety issue might be a public relations issue, a perception issue in a way.

Yes.

I mean, they have the data to back some of this up, but it seems they are also excited to bring up the media attention on this as received.

Well, Ethan, I want to stick with you because you had this fascinating article in digger about Vermont's remote court hearing system.

And this is something that really became necessary during Covid because people couldn't get together and, you know, had the usual court hearings, but it's sort of it's sort of now gone on past that, the worst of the of the epidemic.

What are some of the problems that are happening with the remote court hearing system, now that you've been writing about?

Yeah.

I mean, there are a lot of problems.

One of the most alarming is that it seems as though, some people are getting confused.

There's instances of mistaken identity.

You know, you might, show up to court, and the the the judge is addressing you by one name, and that's not your name.

And I talked to a number of defense attorneys who've had that happen, but, you know, it expands beyond there.

You've got instances of now that the prison system is taking on the role of hosting court cases from inside prison.

There are some other things they aren't doing anymore.

They aren't, for example, printing out, you know, when you are charged with a crime and you show up to court from prison, you might not know what the state's cases against you.

You don't even necessarily know the charges.

And, prison staff isn't providing people with those documents so they can know what it is they're charged with.

They're no longer providing any forms of court paperwork to people charged with crime.

So if you're a defense attorney, you might have to drive from Bennington to Newport to present your client with a plea agreement that you used to be able to just hop on the phone.

And a prison worker would, you know, facilitate that conversation.

So there's some tension, too, between the Department of Corrections and the judiciary about, you know, who's responsible for what here.

Right?

Because so much of this burden has shifted from the judiciary on to the Department of Corrections, and that hasn't come with any additional funding or resources.

And so it seems like there's a bit of a standoff at the moment between prison leadership and court leadership to say, you know, we the prisons shouldn't be taking on this judicial responsibility, but they're at a bit of a deadlock at the moment.

And very briefly, Ethan, before we move on here, you had this amazing story in your article about, someone who, having their remote court hearing went through the process again.

You know, he's being he's not in the courtroom, he's not with his lawyer, etc.. At the end of all this, he has to speak up and say, the person you've been talking about is not me, right?

And tell us what happened there.

This person was almost released from prison and should not have been right.

I was speaking to a public defender in Windham County and she said, you know, this person, they were, they were going to be released on bail.

They were about to leave prison and they'd been mistaken for someone else.

And so this person that was, about to walk free really was supposed to remain in prison.

And they were, you know, minutes away from releasing the wrong person and luckily was honest enough and spoke up and said, you don't release me.

You're not even talking about me here.

Unbelievable.

Okay.

And while so and I want to move on to you now because we're going to be we've been talking about housing for quite a while now.

We're going to be talking about it, I think, for, for, for many years to come.

There is a new group of what we'll call power players lobbying for more housing.

Let's build homes.

I guess.

Is the name here.

What are they all about?

What are they trying to do?

Yeah, this is an effort that has been gaining power or gaining steam for several months.

It's just been a group of people who are stakeholders in the housing, conversation.

So Vermont Housing Finance Agency and construction companies, banks, University of Vermont, and anybody who either needs to employ people or wants to see the state's economy improve and a few weeks ago, they enlisted Mayor Weinberger, the former mayor of Burlington, to come on as their public face.

And he's going to lobby for them.

They held, held a sort of grand, introduction on Tuesday and at the state House.

And there were a lot of heavy hitters there.

The, CEO of the UVM Medical Center was there, and they've got a bunch of chambers behind them, bankers, and as I said, construction companies.

And they're, they're they're sort of planning.

I mean, there are other housing campaigns, other coalitions that are trying to build housing.

And I asked a couple of people, how is this different?

And one thing is that they think the time is different.

The time is sort of a little more right there has been a lot of people working to raise awareness of how the effect that housing has on the rest of the state, on every aspect of life here, even health care costs and education.

But the other thing is that they're different because they're going to be, trying to change the culture a little bit of Vermont where people, a lot of people want to keep things the way they are because they feel that that is the best way to preserve our natural environment and just the state that everybody loves.

And so they've enlisted people like Maura Collins from VA, who's, really brilliant on this subject to explain that, trying to keep things the way they are will actually make Vermont go backwards so that we will end up sort of with the oligarchs and the poor people who, can barely house themselves, who are serving them, to create a more equal, and equitable Vermont.

They say, and when that's more environmentally sustainable, they want to go, they want to have a plan, a large, you know, broad plan for building housing in settled areas.

Yeah.

And I think, it's it's that idea of a you're saying change of the culture.

We've heard that phrase Nimby, you know, not in my backyard.

They want yimby.

Yes, in my backyard.

Is that what you've been hearing?

They do.

And they also want to work with environmental groups and, try to try to show people how it could actually improve their lives.

Even if your life, will be changed by a new housing development.

More traffic, more people at your library, you know more.

You know how it will.

How it will help in a situation where Vermont is really in a crisis, a financial crisis.

We're losing the number of kids in our schools and the tax base is being spread out.

It's to fewer and fewer people.

And, this is a way to make Vermont more affordable and accessible.

Let's give an example here.

And we're going to move to to Barry now because this this could have, is a sort of a cautionary tale in a way.

There's this big building in downtown Barry that's been vacant for a while.

Let's hear the Barry City manager explain just how long this has been vacant.

This is something that's been vacant for 15 years.

I think if we don't take advantage of this opportunity, there's a chance it could be vacant for another 15 years.

And we don't want that.

I think there's a lot of possibilities there.

And certainly it'll be a community process to see what that would be.

This is the exact same size as this as the lot where we're building 32 units of housing.

So in a perfect world, we could possibly do 32, maybe more units of housing right here on Main Street.

Okay, so what's the problem?

Why can't they just go ahead and build the housing on this vacant building?

So, what he's talking about is a parking lot that the city has sold to a dollar to a developer who's going to work with an affordable housing developer to build 32 units of housing right downtown.

This latest project is an empty storefront that's been sort of, sitting in the middle of Main Street since 2010.

It used to be a big dollar store.

It's actually two storefronts.

It's a really big building.

It's owned by a Montpelier landlord named Jeff Jacobs, who hasn't done anything with it.

And the city has reached out to him on several occasions.

They say the building is dangerous and it's not safe for firefighters to go in there if it catches fire.

But the company hasn't done anything with the building.

They had it listed and they have it listed now for one point, it was 1.4 million, and then it was 1.2 million.

And so a business group called the Barrie Area Development Corporation has, secured a deal to buy the building for $1 million.

And the city is has pledged $400,000 to help them do that.

And people in town are not happy about having that empty building downtown.

But they say that Barrie could do a lot of other things with the $400,000, especially because they just had that devastating flood and there they're actually declining a lot of their FEMA buyouts.

So, you know, there's people who don't have any help to fix their flooded homes or their flooded heating systems.

And the city's giving $400,000 to buy a building from somebody who's sort of not really worth that much at all.

Or that was what I was going to ask you.

Is it really appraised at that much?

I mean, I'm sure there are differing opinions on that, but it's not.

But, you know, our appraisal values don't match our purchase values in a lot of the real estate purchases in Vermont.

So it's really almost a philosophical question.

Would you rather buy the building, demolish it, and have the city build something, or would you rather have it sit there empty?

But the other thing is, which a couple maple people have made this good point.

You know, it's $1 million to buy it.

Then you've got to come up with the money to build something there, or you end up with another whole, like Burlington has had for really a long time.

Newport has won, Rutland has won.

So nobody wants another pit, right?

Oh, wow.

Okay, before we move on briefly and, there's one bit of good news.

Apparently there's a nonprofit exploring some options for a new manufactured home park.

Yeah, that's right, this is CDI.

I forget what they stand for, but they are a a financer for, a lot of the mobile home parks or the manufactured home parks in Vermont have the residents have banded together to form co-ops and they have bought their parks and create facilitates that.

And their latest venture is an anonymous donor, gave them $50,000 and said, what would you do with this if you could do anything?

And they decided they wanted to create an entirely new mobile home park.

So they're shopping around for land.

They think they have a site in southern Vermont that will work.

Its on town sewer and water already, so that's a big expense they wouldn't have to worry about that would House.

That would hold 200 manufactured homes.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well we'll keep following your reporting on that and see if that bears fruition.

Big report came down late this week, 274 pages, dealing with something that everybody's paying close attention to.

This is the clean heat standard.

And, Stephen Bendix, you've been doing a lot of reporting on this.

The Public Utilities Commission advised lawmakers against moving forward with the Clean Heat standard, but not because of the increase in energy costs, as I understand it, but because it would require an administratively complex framework for the heating fuels industry.

And that doesn't really fit neatly into the existing regulatory schemes.

What's happening here?

Where does this leave Vermont?

We're trying to meet some of the global emission standards, too, as well.

Well, that's one of the big questions that are being posed after we all waited all day on the 15th, knowing this report was going to drop, and it dropped just about 15 or 20 minutes before midnight on that Wednesday before we had to take a deep dive in.

But perfect reporters love that.

Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, what's next is the big question.

So it's going to cost just under $1 billion.

But that is over a ten year period.

So it comes out to roughly 95 million a year and then about half of that in value, they say.

And carbon emission reductions over that ten year period right around $477 million with then more therefore, after with greener alternatives being out there.

House Republicans have already put in for a bill to repeal the clean Heat standard and get rid of it.

And so we kind of know where they sit.

We know where Governor Scott sits on it.

He vetoed it, obviously in 2023 when it went through.

But talking to Democrats and ones in key committees where this is going to be going through, they said they kind of just have to talk with their committees and figure some stuff out.

But it's going to start in the Senate, as it was a Senate bill when it began.

And and Watson, the chair, said it's still going to be a little bit until they get around with it, because it's a very new committee.

She's the only member in Senate Natural Resources and Energy that was there last biennium.

So she said she has to create relationships with these people in the committee and wants to work on a few other bills to kind of see where everyone sits.

So everyone works together before tackling such a controversial bill.

But we also talked with Governor Scott the other day about this is in part for the Global Warming Solutions Act, and we're seeing how expensive some of these things have come out to be to meet these deadlines.

So now it's posing the question, do we need to potentially do some things to these deadlines to make it more affordable for Vermont?

And he told us he doesn't want to get too ahead on his policy, but to expect some details on that coming forward.

Yeah, it's this is a really tough one because again, you know, trying to beat these, and I don't know what the first, deadline is for the, the emissions and what have you, but unless this gets worked out and the details of this gets worked out, how can Vermont move forward?

I think that's one of the big questions that lawmakers are going to have to figure out.

There were some alternatives posed at the bottom, such as increasing the gas tax to be able to use for other cleaner energy forms and things along those lines.

But I think that's just kind of the big question is now just seeing what lawmakers do with this information that they have.

And Governor Scott, again, it's just very much opposed to anything that's going to put upward pressure on fuel prices.

Right?

That's what that is major.

And pretty much anything that's going to put any more cost on Vermonters and what they're already facing.

Okay.

We'll keep following your reporting on that.

Also, you know, education is this other big kerfuffle.

And, Democrats were going to come out with a sort of stutter or at least give an update on what they have been planning to do about trying to bring down the cost of education, property taxes, all the things tied to it.

But they didn't come up with anything.

Yeah, there wasn't much that came out of that when they talked to us earlier this week on Tuesday.

Basically it was just saying things we've heard the speaker say they after Governor Phil Scott's inaugural address or even after she was reelected speaker, they're open to everything.

Everything's on the table.

We want to work together and everyone's going to be hand in hand.

But from what I've seen and heard, it seems like a lot of it is just waiting on Governor Phil Scott to deliver his plans for education funding reform.

Yeah, and I don't want to bash the Democrats on this completely because, again, the Republicans now have a more even that even.

But they've got more folks now that have been elected, and they're going to have their say on this issue.

Ethan, you were going to weigh in on this.

Yeah, I think it's it's a new political dynamic.

In the past, we've seen, legislative leadership.

And that has meant Democrats in recent years, taking the lead on developing policies.

But this year, we've got the governor and his team, planning to bring forward their proposal.

And so that means that, House leadership, Democratic leadership is going to be able to react.

And that's, that's a new dynamic this year.

I mean, does it feel and I'll throw this out to everyone.

Does it feel like the Democrats are kind of waiting for that to hear what the governor is going to propose first, and then react to that before jumping in and trying to tackle this very complex issue?

I think.

So, you know, Senate President Philip Roth has said, you know, we'll hear the governor's proposal, then will marry, you know, our ideas to that proposal.

But, everyone's keeping their ideas very close to the vest at this point.

I think Democrats are also waiting to see when Scott's proposal comes out.

Is it going to be some new ideas, or is it just going to be recycling?

A lot of the old ideas that we've heard for years and years and years during his administration?

Yeah, it's going to be very interesting.

Property taxes not an issue that's going away anytime soon.

Ethan, you've been, writing as well about some legislative oversight issues with Vermont's IT systems, which, as I understand it, are pretty old, outdated.

What are some of the problems here?

Well, it's a perennial issue that, we spend a lot of money on it, and we've got very outdated systems, entering this new legislative biennium, there are new committees of jurisdiction.

Taking this on, we've got the House, Energy and Digital Infrastructure Committee, which used to be tied to, the House Environment Committee.

Now it's a whole separate entity.

But as Stephen talked about, it's going to have to deal with the clean heat standard.

And so it's got a lot on its plate.

In the Senate you've got institutions now taking on it issues.

That's, something they've taken on from finance.

But it doesn't it doesn't seem like, these new committees of jurisdiction means new attention.

And I think that does worry some people, you know, there's this, very costly, you know, 7 million, 70 million plus, dollar project for a new H.R system across state government.

And, the legislative economists who, try to nonpartisan judge these things have said there are a lot of weaknesses in the proposal.

And so it's unclear if these committees are going to take that up.

But there's some reason to believe, they should be concerned.

Okay.

I want to get to an update on Vermont's efforts to get some safe injection sites, into the state.

This is a place where people can who use, injected drugs can safely use them.

And so we've we've got some potential roadblocks there, Stephen.

Right.

Yes.

It's been one of the more controversial bills in the state House the past couple of years, from the two sides.

But yeah, the city of Burlington gave an update to the House Human Services Committee this past week where basically, the mayor's chief of staff, John McGee, was talking about.

They're making progress.

They like to be a little bit further than where they are right now.

One of the questions I get asked more than any is where is it going to go?

Where is it going to go?

But we still don't know where that is.

They're still working to figure out who's going to staff it, find the provider for.

And they say once they're able to find that partner, then they will be able to identify a location and then go from there.

But there's also other questions that were posed in the committee after, Doctor Levine also testified on it.

And McGee of with the new administration coming in federally with Nick Caris being out and the new U.S. attorney, that's going to be in Burlington, how is that whole process and dynamic going to work?

To which church?

Rosa Woods said, we really kind of just have to wait to see who that person is.

Yeah, well, we're going to find out more, after Monday when the new administration comes in, we'll see how much attention they paid to Little Vermont on this issue.

But we say little.

This is a this is a big deal.

And it is, to be clear, technically federally illegal still, even though that's the caveat.

Yep, yep.

I want to get to a little bit more of good news.

And you've been writing about Vermont's first road scar in quite some time, right?

That's right.

This is, one of the most prestigious academic awards that is awarded to, people in the U.S.

It's, it's a chance to study at Oxford for up to three years and get a PhD.

And it went.

Nobody in Vermont has won a Rhodes Scholarship in 20 almost 20 years.

But this year, a young woman who goes to Harvard for.

And she grew up in Shelburne.

She graduated from Cvu.

She, she won one and, I was lucky enough to talk to her for my story.

And I was kind of blown away by her work, which focuses on, she calls it the condition of animals because it's not really animal welfare or animal rights.

It's more it's about the entire way that, our species views other species and not just eating them, but using them in agriculture and keeping them as pets and everything.

And, one of the things that she said was that her work isn't really taken that seriously by her peers at Harvard.

I mean, she works with noted animal researchers, and she's done research, you know, overseas.

But she said, in general, the world doesn't take animal welfare very, very seriously, not like some of the scientific study that her peers are doing.

But I think that this might help her advance this, this type of thought.

There's people all over the world doing this kind of work, like really trying to change the way that we view our fellow travelers on this earth.

And I think this will help her some great vindication and validation for her work.

Right there really is tremendous.

That's some good news to talk about.

I want to talk about, former Vermont Governor Tom salmon, who recently, passed away.

Really amazing.

He pulled off what I think we all agree here is probably the biggest political upset, maybe in Vermont history.

He had only served three terms in the House when he ran as a Democrat in 1972, throwing his hat late in the ring against, Republican candidate, a businessman named Luther.

Hackett, I believe.

And really, nobody gave him much of a chance to win.

But he did, and it became really quite the political story.

And we had some thoughts, from Governor Phil Scott, on the passing of Tom salmon.

He said Governor Salmon led Vermont through some of our nation's most difficult times, doing his best to stabilize our economy due to an oil embargo and strengthening trust of government here at home after Watergate.

His efforts on behalf of Vermont and our people are worthy of our gratitude, remembrance and respect.

That was Governor Phil Scott talking about the late Tom salmon.

You know, and again, he also went on to, become president of UVM, did a lot of, really important things here in Vermont.

So we did want to note, that passing as well.

And, briefly, Steve and I also, I know that you, with the 40th anniversary of Mancunians inauguration, was something that you had covered.

Yes, it was first and only to this day, a female governor of Vermont.

And she's inspired tons and dozens and dozens of lawmakers that are currently under the Golden Dome, creating the laws that affect every single one of us every day.

Really appreciate that.

And I was, very pleased to be able to speak with her recently and talk about her career in Vermont.

And that's where we're going to have to leave it for today.

I really want to thank our panel for their excellent work today.

Anne Wallace Allen from Seven Days, Ethan Weinstein from VTDigger and Stephen Biddix from NBC5, thank you everyone so much for being here.

Thank you at home for watching and listening, and we'll see you next week.

I hope we have a great week.

In the meantime, I'm Mitch Whitley will join you again next week for Vermont.

This week.