JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Speaking of a human tsunami, Elon Musk went to the -- I'm just trying transitions out.

Give me some slack, all right?

Give me some slack.

Elon Musk went to the Pentagon.

You were there.

He did not get a briefing on a China war plan, as we thought, but what was he doing there in the first place and what happened?

NANCY YOUSSEF: So, as we understand it, there was a request from Musk to get some kind of briefing on China and the Defense Department started to facilitate that.

And then it came out.

And overnight, from what we can tell, plans changed.

And so by the time he arrived in the building, what went from meeting in the tank, which is one of the most secure rooms in the Pentagon, he headed right up to the secretary's office.

They met for 90 minutes.

We were told by the president in his suite that China wouldn't come out at all, even though the commander in charge of the U.S. military response to China was tasked to speak to Elon Musk and that they talked about technology and innovation and actually that he wasn't there to learn but to teach the department about some of his skills was some of the talking points we heard from the Pentagon today.

And so he spent about 90 minutes in the building.

It caused quite a stir.

But I can't tell you precisely what came out of it other than what is originally intended.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Just listen for one second to Trump talking about this and here he seems unusually soft about the general approach.

Just listen to Trump on this for a second.

DONALD TRUMP: I don't want to show that to anybody, but certainly you wouldn't show it to a businessman who is helping us so much.

Elon has businesses in China and he would be susceptible perhaps to that.

But it was such a fake story.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, so in other words, Trump is saying that this would be outside the norms to show a businessman with interest in China the war plan.

He calls it a fake story.

But, I mean -- and this is a question about the challenge of reporting in this amid this maelstrom.

Do you -- we don't yet have a sense of what actually was trying to be accomplished by Elon Musk.

NANCY YOUSSEF: No, but, you know, the conflict be leading up to it was revealing because the president was irritated at the suggestion that he would open up the operational planning book to Elon Musk because there's a conflict of interest.

But that's been the argument the whole time about having him in this position.

And they came back -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And there's gambling in Casablanca, I mean, or whatever the expression is.

I mean, that's not exactly -- NANCY YOUSSEF: But it was revelatory that he seemed to be frustrated by it, even though he set up the mechanisms that put it in place and went on to say he's here to look for cuts in the government.

If someone's making money through Tesla through Chinese production, if they're getting -- could use the intel that the military has for SpaceX, should he be deciding what government agencies within the Pentagon should or should not stay open?

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Yes, go ahead.

EUGENE DANIELS: I had a different read on, especially his meeting with the secretary.

A week-and-a-half ago, or whatever it was, two weeks ago, there was that blow up, right, with the secretaries, Elon Musk and President Trump.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And Marco Rubio was upset.

EUGENE DANIELS: Exactly.

People were upset because they felt like he was overstepping his bounds, he was controlling their departments.

Donald Trump has tasked Elon Musk with going into the Department of Defense, right?

And so you have Elon Musk going meeting -- walking out and laughing and giggling with Secretary Hegseth out of the building.

That shows a chumminess.

And so when DOGE does what it ends up doing, that will tell the rest of us that maybe Hegseth and Elon are friends and they're fine with the fact that he's doing these kinds of things.

So, I also think there's like some P.R.

happening behind the scenes of making sure that Elon is seen as going to the secretaries and not as going against them.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: David, what do you think is going on here at the deepest level?

DAVID IGNATIUS: You know, anytime Trump draws a line on Musk's ability to get a briefing to take actions, anytime the president says there may be a conflict of interest here, that's a good moment.

We need more of that.

You know, I think, as Eugene said, what should be ahead in terms of making the government more efficient is a real -- you know, bringing the chainsaw to some of the wasteful spending at the Pentagon.

Anybody who follows the Pentagon, a good reporter like Nancy knows there is incredible waste.

And you're going after USAID, you know, these little agencies while there's this massive misuse of taxpayer money that doesn't make the country safe for the -- preserves legacy, weapon systems that are increasingly out outmoded, that has layers of bureaucracy that make it almost impossible to manage efficiently.

So, people do need to focus on that.

If Musk is going to do that, well, you know, I think that's a mission that that I actually to see it.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Fold in the China piece, though, because Musk has been -- I mean, Musk is economically dependent on China.

He's been friendly to China.

He's been unfriendly to Taiwan.

DAVID IGNATIUS: The idea that he would get a briefing on, you know, war plans for China is appalling.

And I think in that little clip that you showed, you saw in Trump's response, his understanding, that's a no-go.

But, you know, the -- again, I think the idea that we're going to make this, you know, overstuffed, often inefficient, technologically backward, U.S. government more efficient, you know, that's something that I think people would like to see, right?

It's just the way he's dealt with a chainsaw approach to that has been crazy.

NANCY YOUSSEF: I think that's a great point.

But does he need a China 101 briefing?

Should a military commander be doing it?

Is that for DOGE, and if -- and does it give him a financial benefit as well?

This is where the sort of conflict of interest emerges, I think.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

There are a lot of businessmen who would like to get a senior most briefing on China, even if it's unclassified.

NANCY YOUSSEF: That's right.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Even if it's just - - this is our overall posture.

But -- NANCY YOUSSEF: And he has a security clearance so they can answer his questions at a secret level that's intelligence that's invaluable in some businesses.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, I predict that we will be spending more time trying to interpret the role of Elon Musk in the federal government in the coming weeks.

That's my big prediction for the evening.

I'm sorry to say that that's all the time we have for now.

I do want to thank our panelists for an excellent discussion.

Thank you very much.

And I want to thank our viewers for joining us.