Welcome to the Vermont Public 2024 Primary Election Debates.

I'm Mikaela Lefrak, host of Vermont Edition.

Today we are bringing you the second of our three debates ahead of the August 13th primary.

Today is the debate between the Republican candidates for lieutenant governor.

Live today in the Vermont Public studio in downtown Winooski are John Rodgers of West Glover.

He's a former Democratic member of both the Vermont House of Representatives and Vermont Senate.

He runs a stonework and excavation business and a hemp and cannabis farm.

Welcome.

Thank you.

We're also joined by Gregory Thayer of Rutland City.

He's an accountant and the former chair of the Rutland GOP.

He's also a former Rutland City alderman.

Welcome.

Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

This year, Vermont Public is approaching our election coverage a little differently than we have in the past.

We've adopted a model called the Citizen's Agenda.

More than 550 Vermonters have weighed in with us on the issues they care most about and what they want candidates to discuss ahead of the election.

Throughout today's debate, you'll hear some of those questions.

We'll also spend extra time on issues that we've gotten the most comments about.

If you want to participate, there is still lots of election coverage ahead of us in the next few months.

You can go to Vermont public dot org slash election to share your thoughts.

Here's the format we're going to use today and throughout the 2024 primary debates.

In the first segment, I'll ask questions from our Citizens Agenda and the Vermont public newsroom.

Responses are limited to 60 seconds.

In the second segment, the candidates will have an opportunity to ask each other questions with a brief follow up question.

Candidates have 30 seconds to ask the question, and responses are limited to 60 seconds.

In the third segment, we'll return to questions from our citizens agenda and the Vermont public newsroom responses.

They are limited to 30 seconds.

If we have time, we'll have a lightning round of questions with very brief answers, 10 seconds or less.

Will conclude our program with one minute closing statements from each candidate.

All right.

We'll start with questions for both of you.

Please limit your answers to 60 seconds.

And a reminder, I may ask follow up questions.

What motivates you to run for lieutenant governor and why do you think you are the most qualified candidate?

Gregory Thayer, we'll start with you.

Thank you, Carla.

And thanks to Mr. Alvey for reaching out to me and helping to put this together to orchestrate this.

This is great, beautiful studios.

You know, I'm an accountant.

I have a masters degree in accounting, and the party has spoken with me about running for auditor.

Didn't want to be an auditor politically.

I'm a political guy.

I love the making of public policy.

I love retail politics, listening to people.

And my whole campaign is about We the People, which is kind of in concert with what you folks are doing with the citizens agenda.

It's we the people, right?

Talking and listening to the people.

And so I declined that.

And when everything happened, what, two years ago with Senator Leahy retiring from from the U.S. Senate and, you know, thank you, Senator Leahy, for your service.

I decided that I you know, opened up the seat for lieutenant governor with Molly Gray, making her switch to U.S. House.

And I just saw an opening and being a political guy, I decided this is me, this is what I'm going to do.

So here I am.

And as you mentioned, two years ago, you ran an unsuccessful primary bid for this role.

How has your understanding of the issues and your ideas to address them changed in the last two years?

Well, I differ on an unsuccessful was very successful.

We did very well against a 12 year incumbent state senator and former minority leader of the Senate.

And, you know, we garnered 45% of the vote.

We won five southern counties, did very well in the eastern coast of of eastern part of Vermont.

And, you know, you just get a new grasp of everything and listening to the people, which I've done, I've been out there talking to a lot of people statewide and doing my town halls across the state on energy and CRT and economics and Americanism.

So I got a chance to really listen to the people.

Thank you.

Eastern coast, you got me excited.

We had some seaside coast all of a sudden.

It's true.

Well, same question to you.

Why do you think you are the most qualified candidate for lieutenant governor and why are you running?

Yes, Mikayla.

So I served for 16 years in the state legislature, eight in the House, eight in the Senate, and really had a reputation for working across the aisles with with people of all party affiliations for the benefit of average Vermonters.

And I see this as a good platform to bring the voice of working class Vermonters back into the state house.

The legislature has gotten into a rock.

They seem to be operating inside of a bubble since COVID, where they only talk to each other and to lobbyist.

Lobbyist represent wealthy people and businesses, and the working class people have been forgotten and the cost of living increases that they have implemented in the last two years, hundreds of millions of dollars per year are making it unsustainable for the average Vermonter.

And so I want to be a voice for the average Vermonter to bring their concerns back into the statehouse.

John Rodgers You have run and been elected in the House and the Senate as a Democrat, and this election season you changed parties.

You're running in the Republican primary and you've said that you don't feel like you left the Democratic Party, it left you.

Why not stay in that party and try to change it from the inside?

That's a good question.

What really was the icing on the cake is the fact that I have seen the Democratic Party, which is now filled with progressives forward legislation that I look at as regressive in punishing poor and working class people for the benefit of their wealthy donors.

And when I look around the building, I see the moderate Republicans and Governor Scott speaking up for the people who are suffering under these repressive costs.

And so I decided it was time to join them.

And, well, let's move on to our second question.

This is our most asked about topic from our citizens agenda, climate change.

Just last night, more than eight inches of rain fell in some parts of the northeast kingdom, leading to flash flooding and about two dozen emergency rescues.

Many scientific studies link the rise of extreme weather events to our changing climate.

Last year, it was the hottest year globally in recorded history.

Bob in Windsor County writes Climate change is an existential problem.

What are you doing to address it?

John Rodgers, you'll go first.

Well, I'm one of the few people that likes to lead by example because I have almost 500 acres of farm and forest and we set aside a huge amount of it for wildlife.

First off, for grassland birds, many of which are threatened or endangered.

And then we put another 20 or 30 acres of wildlife food plots in every year.

They have a special blend that is for wildlife, for birds, for pollinators and for beneficial insects.

We use it as crop rotation.

It also captures carbon and stores it back in the soil and helps build the nutrients in our soil.

We sustainably manage our forest and our property is provide an ecosystem services for thousands of Vermonters.

Yet we, the landowners that are doing the right thing, get no benefit.

We actually we get a $22,000 a year property tax bill and that's going up 16% this year.

So those of us that are doing the right thing for climate change are being punished.

And I think more of us need to treat the planet like we do on our farm.

Well, looking at the national level, the National Republican Party's platform does not mention climate change or global warming.

Does that contradict your values that you've just laid out for us?

Well, absolutely.

And I've told people I want to help build the party of Phil Scott.

I want to help build a party of moderates who recognize that climate change is real and that we have to work on it with real solutions, not the faux solutions that the majority is working on right now, which are enriching very wealthy energy developers.

We have to work on real solutions that make a difference here and aren't doing destruction to people and the environment on the other side of the planet.

Thank you.

Same question to you.

Bob in Windsor wrote, Climate change is an existential problem.

What are you doing to address it?

Well, you know, I do my own things in my own home that I can manage and control because I love our environment, too.

You know, I've said often that we all live, work and play here.

And I believe Vermont used to say Rutland was the best place on God's green earth.

That is Vermont.

And it is Vermont is beautiful.

It's one of the benefits that John and I get by traveling to this great state in the beauty.

I'm not a big climate guy.

I don't think there is an extension of threat.

I think that if people do the right things that we you know, our environment, we have the cleanest water, cleanest there.

People, you know, I don't see people throwing stuff out on the out of their cars into the roadsides.

And, you know, you do have some of it, of course, because there just are some people that don't care.

But I'm not a big, you know, the CO2 is needed in our environment and they want to do away with CO2 emissions.

I don't think we can ever get away from the combustion engine and fossil fuels.

And it's you know, fossil fuels are made from the earth in the earth.

And I think it's the way we extract them time and say, oh, yes, they did drop out of follow up question, though.

You said that you're not a climate guy, to be clear, do you believe in global warming and humans effect on it?

Not that I don't believe humans have an effect on it, but I don't believe it's a big problem.

Last year you cited it was the hottest in history, but there's years prior and they'll be years in the future that it's not.

I just I think there's things we can do to mitigate some of the problems, like the flooding.

You know what John's community is going through right now up in Essex, Orleans County and Saint Johnsbury, I think there's things we can do, like maybe dredging our rivers more and and stuff like that.

But storms are going to happen.

It's Mother Nature.

Human nature.

It's God's world.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Let's move on to our next question.

We received many, many messages ahead of today's debate about the lack of housing in the state.

Rachel in Addison County believes that short term rentals are one reason for the strain.

Rachel writes The state needs to help towns regulate short term rentals.

Housing is a right, not a commodity.

But others say short term rentals are beneficial to a town's economy.

Do you think more state wide regulation of short term rentals would help address the state's shortage of affordable housing?

Why or why not?

Well, I think and, you know, thank you for the question.

Rachel, you said yes at the Radisson.

I think regulation is the problem.

And to have the state to come in and, you know, from a big brother aspect, from the state and to say we have to do this, that or the other thing, I think that's the reason we are having and experiencing the problems that we have, Michaela.

I think that there's too much government regulation on contractors, on builders, developers.

I think we need to relax some of them and watch the you know, watch the watch the housing markets boom with investment.

And so I don't support that.

I think it has to be if the only kind of regulation has to be at the town level.

In Rutland City, we have zoning.

I was on the zoning board and we we did, you know, we had rules and we we took those rules into considerations.

And, you know, we we applied them amicably based on the project as individuals.

I think there's things we need to do again, get rid of some of the regulations and moreover go to a single permitting process.

And it takes too long and it's way too expensive.

Thank you.

Well, speaking of regulating, this past session, the Vermont legislature passed some significant reforms to act to 54 months signature land use law.

Do you think that they went far enough?

I don't.

I think we need.

I think they need to go further because and again, that that my son, just about 20 acres of land up on Mendon Mountain to build.

And he's going to get hit in some of those regulations because it's outside the city center, the city centers.

They did some good things with, but not enough.

They need to open it up so people can build so people can can build properties and get rid of some of these regulations.

It's all about the negativity and the regulation and the mindset.

And we need to reduce taxes and cut spending.

So we need to open it up.

All right, thanks.

Well, same question to you, John Rodgers.

Do you think more statewide regulation of short term rentals would help address the state's shortage of affordable housing?

Why or why not?

Well, unfortunately, one size doesn't fit all.

There's two types of people who do short term rental, and I'm one of them.

We have a $50,000 a year farm payment, $22,000 a year in property taxes.

So we do short term rental to help us keep up with the exorbitant cost of living here.

And there's a ton of people that I know that rent out a room in their house or rent out their camp for several weeks to help them cover the cost of their taxes.

Let's not punish them.

We have another type, which is an investor that comes from another state or even from here in the state.

That's that's buying houses and renting whole street short term rental and building small little tiny houses and doing short term rental.

Yeah, go ahead.

If they've got the money to invest in that kind of thing and they're doing short term rentals, go ahead and tax them a little more.

But many people are using short term rental to make their budgets work because the cost of living in Vermont has gotten so high.

Possible to tax one type of group and not the other?

Probably not.

Probably not.

No, it's a tough situation, but that's what I want.

And that's the thing about being in the legislature.

There are too few people who have had these experiences and unless you have lived this life, it's hard to make a good decision.

If they're making that decision to tax the folks that I'm saying it's okay to tax because they have lots of money.

They're also affecting the people that are struggling to keep their property and renting to help pay the costs so that they don't lose their property.

Thank you.

Let's move on to our next subject.

Taxes, a big issue this past year in particular.

Ethan in Orange County believes we are funding badly needed social services by raising taxes on the very people those services are meant to help.

Do you think Vermont needs to cut back on the social services it provides in order to lower taxes?

If so, what would you cut?

John Rodgers.

Well, first off, we have to make sure we're providing services for those who need it.

The problem with many of these services is there are always people who are working the system and drawing money out that they that they shouldn't be.

And so I would say our government agencies just need to be sure that the people who are providing services to really need it and it needs to be short term services provided by multiple agencies that the folks need help with that helps get them back on their feet so that they can get a job and in not need long term services.

So just to be clear there, you said other there are people working the system here overreliant on government services and and aid.

How pervasive a problem do you think that is in Vermont?

There's in our community, there seems to be a fair number of people who are out and about and look healthy but have figured out a way to work the disability or the worker's compensation system.

And I know people who work in health care who say people come in and they're on disability and there doesn't seem to be a thing wrong with them.

Meanwhile, I have a brother in law that's in a wheelchair that doesn't get any disability help because he owns a business.

He.

Thank you.

Same question to you, Gregory Thayer.

Do you think Vermont needs to cut back on social services in order to lower taxes?

Thank you for the question.

You know, Vermont has about 643,000 people.

There is a there's a study group in Montpelier right now that's putting numbers out about 240, 230, 234,000 people that are on welfare or state assistance.

That's a lot of people.

That's one third of our population.

That's too many.

And I think that I think seriously that we need to have programs that are efficient and effective and doing the right things for the right people.

Jon has has a situation with his brother in law.

I have situations, you know, with a family member, too, that can't get services.

I received a call today and the way up, somebody upset about can't get some services.

Senator Williams called me this morning on a situation where the folks had a baby and the baby was born without a femur.

Can't get assistance because he works and that's heart wrenching.

So there's a lot of and I do I do dovetail.

John said there's a lot of people exploiting our system and and we're letting that happen.

We're allowing it.

And that's the legislature, the Democrat Socialist legislature.

Thank you.

Can you explain why why you say that?

That's the Democrat socialist, as you say, fault for people exploiting the system because they put the systems in place.

They're the leaders of the of the House in the Senate who've been in leadership for like 15 years, 20 years.

And it's their policies that that's that's getting through the legislature, that's becoming law, directing the agencies to hand out this money, our money, taxpayers money.

And they're sick of their money, their pocketbook being eroded from all these all these policies coming out of under the gold dome.

And you follow up question for for both of you, since we have a little bit of time here, 30 seconds each to answer the emergency motel housing program has been extended numerous times in Vermont, particularly since the pandemic.

Do you think that it should continue at its current level, be expanded or reduced?

I believe it's housing more than a thousand people right now, including families.

Well, we have to get back to the main issue driving homelessness, and that's the cost of living in Vermont.

And every time the property taxes go up, every time the electric rates go up, the heating fuel rates go up.

It makes properties more expensive, whether you own them or whether you rent them.

And so the legislature keeps saying things about, oh, we need to provide more affordable housing.

There's no such thing as affordable housing in Vermont anymore unless it's subsidized because housing is so expensive to build and maintain emergency motel housing program, keep it as it is.

Expand it.

Contract it.

Well, I don't know enough about it at this point.

And who's in there to know what?

It's been a valuable program.

I don't like seeing people put out on the street.

It's very expensive.

I think we have to just look at it and assess it on a regular basis and make sure that we're taking care of our citizens.

Thank you.

Same to you.

You know, it's not that I would totally get rid of it.

We need to work with the folks that are less fortunate in our community.

We all have hearts and we want to see, but we want to lift them up.

We don't want to just keep giving handouts.

So we need to make the programs more efficient and and help people and help educate and educate them.

Mental health is a big issue.

I agree that inflation and the cost of living in Vermont is out of whack, and that affects a lot of this.

But mental health is a huge issue.

So emergency motel housing program, expand it, contract it, not get rid of it.

I don't want to get rid of it, Michaela.

I think we we need to do it better.

We need to do it a lot better and we need to make it more efficient.

We're just handing out money to whomever and these people can work.

And there are a lot of jobs out there.

Every marketplace I go into, there's help wanted.

So when we can train people, we have great training programs to help people.

So we need to get more people into those programs and help them get them out of this.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Well, speaking of training, let's turn now to education.

Priscilla in Madison County is most concerned about public education this election cycle, as were many people who connected with us through our citizens agenda.

Priscilla wants to know what plans do you have to address?

Teacher shortages and deferred school building maintenance, specifically in Vermont?

We know there's lots of issues in the education system right now that we could address.

But but let's start with those two.

Gregory, Thank you for the question.

Again, out of Madison County, you know, we do definitely have a funding issue in our schools, and we're looking at some different programs, tax policy programs.

But 60 seconds, 50 seconds isn't enough time to get into it.

But we need to go back to the drawing board and change our whole system.

I like a consumption tax program that we're and we put together and sell research in and it's definitely on.

I think it should be on the table.

But we have too many chiefs, too many, too much top level in our education and our supervisory unions.

I think one statewide, Joe Tilden, the former Rutland City fellow alderman, Democrat leader in Rutland, talked about, you know, about not shrinking, but what's the word I'm looking for, John?

Consolidating.

There you go.

Thank you.

You know, the the school districts, there's too many of them.

There's too much money being spent there.

And there's not a lot of kids.

But we need we need a new funding program for our schools.

And I'm concerned.

But lastly, if I may, let's get the politics, the indoctrination and stuff like that out of our schools.

And let's teach three year and good science, history and math.

How does what you're saying indoctrination relate to school funding?

Because because she asked about the shortage of teachers.

I know a lot of teachers.

I talked to a lot of teachers.

And I think we've got a lot of great teachers out there.

McKayla And they're leaving the profession.

Some are just hanging on by a thread because of the retirement.

They've been there, you know, 20, 30 years and they want to get to the retirement.

But some of them are leaving.

Some of the new ones take up new careers because they they cannot they cannot work in that environment.

The NEA, again, another, you know, special interest group that's hurting the profession, the unintended consequences of these special interests.

Thank you.

Gregory So you've spoken in the past about your concern around critical race theory being taught in Vermont schools.

Is that still a concern of yours?

Do you have evidence that, quote unquote, critical race theory, which is typically a university level type of of education format, is in Vermont schools.

And why is that a concern?

It's a concern because it's I think it's hurting our children and what it's doing to our children and teaching them, you know, about white supremacy and judging on the basis of color.

Martin Luther King did not subscribe.

He fought against that stuff.

And I do think it's an issue.

It's not a curriculum.

It's not a curriculum.

It's the way educators teach it, how they're being told the teacher by administer by the administration.

I've seen it in Rutland City.

I've heard about it up and down the state in my CRT town halls and, you know, it's real.

It's not a curriculum.

Dan, I can't remember his last name.

The former aOh Aot give you ten extra seconds.

The former Aot commissioner, you know, he sent back an email to myself and Representative Peterson that is, you know, it's not a curriculum.

It's not in the curriculum.

It's being taught the way it's being taught by the teachers.

And again, there's a lot of great teachers out there and they're they're concerned.

Talked to some kids recently at a restaurant here in Burlington, you know, but I'm out of wicked, out of time.

Thank you.

Thank you for that.

Great.

Well, John, let's turn to you again for so long.

I forgot the question.

Let's talk about Priscilla.

Thank you, Priscilla, for this question.

Wants to know what plans do you have to address?

Teacher shortages and deferred school building maintenance in Vermont?

Yeah, I. I served on the institution committee the entire time I was in the House and Senate, and we oversee the state aid for school construction.

And there was a moratorium on it many years ago because we saw what was coming down the pike and it was more than we could afford.

So we know we've got a lot of older schools.

So it's a tough the the funding system is a huge problem that I believe needs to be started from scratch.

We have many cities around the country that have a larger population than Vermont and have one supervisory union.

There are efficiencies to be had in administrator ation and buying power, which I think could help us dramatically.

But what we need to make sure we're not doing is cutting the essential teachers and staff that are providing the services and having to offer more services than they ever signed up to do because of the social needs of children these days.

And so I'm committed to trying to find a way to cut the high paid people at the top, just the same as a business that was losing money would do.

You bring in some people, you look over the business, see where the efficiencies can be made, because we have to try to provide the best education we can for our youth.

But it has to be at a level Vermonters can afford.

And that's what I'm hearing right now on the campaign trail.

We want to support our school, but we can't afford these property taxes any longer.

And just on the subject specifically of teacher retention, Gregory brought up a curriculum as one of his theories for why teachers might be leaving the profession.

Do you have thoughts there?

Why do you think teachers are leaving the profession and how do we retain them?

I think part of the problem is they're they're probably not getting paid what they're worth.

They're not getting the support that they need.

They're having to deal with kids who have other outstanding issues.

And they were hired to teach.

They were not hired to be, you know, sociologist or psychiatrist or behavioral experts.

And I think it's harder and harder for teachers to operate inside a public school system and actually be able to teach, which is what they want to do.

And getting the the politics out of this debate.

Another thing that your opponent here in this debate brought up, how have you seen politics affect the conversations around education funding in Montpelier?

Well, there's always seems to be politics in everything with with money in it.

But personally, I support a school that teaches real U.S. history and everything that's happened.

So I have no worries about, you know, teaching about slavery and the true history of our country.

I think it's extremely important for everybody to know where we came from, because if we don't know about history, we're apt to repeat it.

And so I don't think politics is in the curriculum that much.

Not it's not putting as much stress on the system as the other social problems that the kids are coming to school with are putting on it.

Thank you.

That concludes the first segment of this debate.

When we come back, the candidates will have an opportunity to ask each other questions.

I'm Michela Lefrak, and this is the Republican primary debate for lieutenant governor on Vermont public.

Stay with us.

This is the Vermont public Republican primary debate for lieutenant governor.

I'm Michela Lefrak in the studio in downtown Winooski for Vermont Public.

Joining us today are John Rodgers of West Glover and Gregory Thayer of Rutland.

The candidates will now have an opportunity to ask each other questions.

The question should be no longer than 30 seconds and responses are limited to 60 seconds.

And a reminder, you can ask a brief follow up question.

John Rodgers, you can ask the first question.

Thank you.

So Gregory, Governor Scott has endorsed me.

He's the most popular governor in the country with a over 80% approval rating.

And I'm just wondering if you endorse and and vote for Governor Scott.

Yeah, I do support Governor Scott.

I voted for him.

I voted for him in the past.

You know, to me, Governor Scott is the last thing that we have between socialism and common sense thinking in our great state of Vermont.

The governor did on a radio show a couple of weeks ago here the morning drive did say that, that I had common sense and I've worked hard around the state.

So thank you.

And this time, do you have a follow up question to that?

No.

All right.

Thank you.

Gregory Thayer, your turn.

All righty.

So I guess I want to ask my opponent, John, to say three nice things about me.

Three nice things about you.

Well, you're a snappy dresser, and and I have heard you're working hard.

And I know several people that I like that say they're friends of yours, so you can't be all bad.

So that's the first time I've heard that question.

That's a good one.

Do you have a follow up?

I just, you know, soften it because, you know, we're all friends and we're after the same thing, you know, and to get there.

And and that's what democracy Vermont is a it's a republic and it's what we do.

So a follow up question would be thank you statement.

Would you agree with that sentiment shared?

Yeah.

No, absolutely.

And that's I mean, the whole reason I'm throwing myself in this isn't isn't for me.

It's it's for Vermont.

It's for my grandkids.

It's for Greg's grandkids.

It's for your everybody.

You know, it's for the future of Vermont for it to remain a place that is open and accepting to all cultures and all people who are good.

And that's how I grew up here.

And I, I just see it slipping away, and I want my grandkids to have that opportunity.

Thank you.

Well, John Rodgers, you have a chance to ask another question to Gregory there.

So, Gregory, in some of your literature, I have seen that you're interested in in trying to get rid of the constitutional amendment to protect a woman's right to choose.

And I feel not only does a woman have the right to bodily autonomy, but all people that their most basic constitutional right is to not have government tell them what to do with their body.

So do you support a woman's right to choose in Vermont?

I'm pro-life from conception.

I believe and I know that we have abortion rights in Vermont right up until birth.

And the bill that you voted on, age 57 and voted for and Prop five, Article 22, brought that autonomy.

I don't support the autonomy, but I respect it because it's the Constitution.

It's in our Constitution.

So let me share with you what I do believe.

I do I do believe that abortion is a right in Vermont.

And I also believe that we need to make our economy the best we can for families, women and families to bring that child.

I just had a grandchild and I'm having another one.

I have six by the end of the summer and five awesome children.

And also, I, you know, we need to we need to keep the pregnancy centers available.

I'm on the among the Knights of Columbus.

And we paid for a ultrasound in the Rutland first step.

And a lot of women change their mind when they hear that heartbeat.

McKayla, you do a follow up.

No, thank you.

And one more question from you, Gregory.

So.

So my next question is, you voted to legalize cannabis, marijuana when you were in the legislature, in the Senate.

And today you're a cannabis farmer in your supply.

And I think a piece on I think it was a vapor piece that that you did you talked about supplying cannabis houses across the state.

And so I'm just wondering, John, what other drugs would you like to legalize or decriminalize?

Sure.

So what a lot of people don't know the history of cannabis and humans have been using cannabis for over 12,000 years.

In 1937, when it was made illegal by our Congress, the American Medical Association argued against making it illegal because at that time, over 50% of their medicines had cannabinoids in them.

This is something that humans have been working with and using forever.

I have friends that have used it to help cure their cancer as soon as it is fully federally legalized, they will be able to do real clinical studies.

It is a miracle plant that our government tried to eradicate from the face of the earth.

And I truly believe in its medicinal properties.

And I have always supported cannabis.

We grew hemp, which is also cannabis, but it doesn't have THC in it.

And we still make hemp products.

And we hear from our customers all over the country how these products help them.

And high THC cannabis can do the same.

Well, follow up this.

THC is a horrible part of cannabis marijuana.

I know there's also calls out there to not have any restrictions on THC.

And so I'm just wondering, do you support THC being unregulated and being able to be in any form of cannabis?

Marijuana.

THC is regulated by law and we have to follow those laws.

If you're asking about the caps, I do not support the current caps because what we need to do is beat the black market.

And the black market doesn't have caps in the black market, doesn't have testing.

And we know that there's still a thriving black market with cannabis.

And the only way to beat it is to have tested safe products in the legal system that people can access at a reasonable price.

Otherwise they will go get unsafe products through the black market.

Thank you to you both for those questions.

This concludes the second segment of our program.

When we come back, the candidates will answer more questions from our citizens agenda and the NEWSROOM.

I'm Michela Lefrak and this is the Republican primary debate for lieutenant governor on Vermont Public polls.

This is the Vermont public republican primary debate for lieutenant governor.

I'm Michela frac in the Vermont Public studio in downtown Winooski.

Joining us today are John Rodgers of West Glover and Gregory Thayer of Rutland.

Well, now return to questions, our citizens agenda and the Newsroom.

Thank you to everybody who submitted questions.

And just a reminder to candidates.

Please limit your answers to 30 seconds.

We're going to start here with a few questions about health care.

Deborah from Chittenden County believes that mental health treatment is chronically underfunded in the United States.

What do you see as the states role, if any, in making mental health care more affordable and accessible for Vermonters?

Gregory Thayer We'll start with you.

Great question.

And we do have some extra time, so we actually will do a minute for this answer.

I've been meeting with health care, mental health professionals across the state and talking with clinicians and owners, and we're putting together a program for that.

Whether I win or lose, we're going to go forward with it because there's a lot lip service and nobody's really doing it.

Take serious people to really address this.

And it is it's I think it's the major issue that John and I have been talking about here is mental health.

There's a decline and we need to address it.

But I think families really have to get involved.

I don't see the government, but there is a role, of course.

But it's really families.

Families have to get involved when they see something.

They've got to talk.

They've got to call somebody.

They've got to try to get help for their loved ones.

Because to me, I grew up.

Mental health is is is important because when you when there's a mental health issue, it's like having cancer or having, you know, a bum shoulder.

You've got to take care of it and a family has got to be involved to help.

And so I think the family has to be the big part.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Same question to you, Mikayla.

One of the things I would like to do as lieutenant governor is work more with the federal delegation in the federal Congress, because here's an area where our federal government has totally failed us.

Most industrialized nations around the world have health care provided by the government.

And if you look at the like the Sweden's in Norway's and those over there, they pay a fairly high tax rate, but they in poll after poll are the happiest people on earth because they may pay that high tax.

But they don't have to worry about getting cancer.

They don't have to worry about having that bad car accident or something happened to one of their child children because they're covered.

It's also one of the major drivers in our cost of education is that health care for educators.

So this is something that I think the state can can help with, but the majority of it really needs to come from the federal government and they need to step up and do a better job for Americans in health care.

Senator Bernie Sanders has been particularly outspoken about changing the ways in which we fund health care as a country.

Do you agree with with his beliefs?

Well, I think he brings up a lot of good points.

I'm not exactly sure I would say that I agree with all those beliefs.

But here's one of the things that bothers me.

When Bernie and the other folks get elected to Congress, we pay for their health care, right?

Our tax dollars pay for the best health care coverage in probably in the world.

And if you look at how many people we provide health care for with our tax dollars, it's like 60% of the population I heard once because all your federal employees, municipal employees.

So we just need to focus on providing that health care for the other 40 or 50% of the population that is not covered today.

Thank you.

Same question.

A follow up question to you.

30 seconds to answer.

How would you work with the federal government?

The federal delegation from Vermont on changing the way that we fund health care?

I don't you know, I don't I do not support a single payer or a socialized medicine.

I believe in free market solutions.

Today, our health care system is so messed up because of all the government involvement, all the government overegged violations, the government trying to do everything.

Everything is controlled at the state level excuse me, at the hospital level.

And according to Kevin Mullin, you're never going to change it because the hospitals have all the control.

He was Governor Scotts.

Was it Green Mountain Care Board chairman?

So I think there's big issues with that.

And I support free market solutions.

I believe people need to be responsible.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Another question related to health care here.

According to a recent report released by the Vermont Department of Health, one in three Vermonters will be over the age of 60 by 2030.

Pegg in Rutland County is concerned there isn't enough older housing and assisted care for aging Vermonters.

How do you think the state should address the growing needs of older Vermonters?

Is this the role of the state?

John Rodgers Well, we certainly owe them.

If they have been here and you know, and worked out their life and want to retire here, they really need a place where they can age, you know, comfortably and in in in a nice way.

As I said before, the problem with trying to provide affordable housing for anybody is the cost of keeping and maintaining a house and building housing units cost four or $500,000 a unit now.

So, yes, there's a huge need trying to figure out how to reduce that cost and and get them sited is still a serious challenge.

Thank you.

Gregory Thayer, I you know, I just again, regulations.

It's the regulations that the state state government has put on.

I'm on building on contractors, on investors to build.

And I think we need to lift a lot of the regulations to open it up.

We need some regulations.

McKayla We do.

And we need to make sure those dwellings are safe.

So I firmly believe that that, you know, you cut some of the regulations, that you'll open it up and there'll be housing and there'll be properties that folks can move into assisted living, independent living and total care living.

And, you know, we have a bunch of them in Rutland.

We need more.

Well, our next question is about a government very curious to hear your thoughts on the Green Mountain job and retention program repays up to $5,000 a year in student loans for Vermont college graduates who stay in state to work for at least two years.

But many Vermont businesses still struggle to hire enough workers.

As lieutenant governor, how would you help convince college graduates to stay in Vermont, and what do you think of this retention program?

Gregory Thayer Well, we have to have programs to to keep people here.

One of the big things when I was on the board at the Chamber of Commerce in Rutland is to is retention, employee retention, right.

So you have to have programs, incentives.

I think our small business employees are always left in the shadow.

We need to we need to work with them better.

And we need to provide programs to keep them here.

Because, again, Vermont is the best place to live, work and play to raise a family.

And again, I have five children.

Not four of them are in Vermont, one's in Chicago.

And I just think we need to have programs to help people and to make it easier for them.

But they're responsible.

Thank you.

Interesting.

It's a I think it's a great program.

I think one of the things we need to do is do more for the trades and with our tech centers.

Unfortunately, over the last couple of decades, guidance counselors and teachers have pushed everyone to go to college.

I'm that I'm now 58.

I'm the average age of a tradesman in the state of Vermont.

You can make a good living in the trades and we don't have enough tradespeople.

It's almost impossible to find a contractor now, and we really need to do more to backfill with young people into the trades.

Thank you, Miriam, for Windham County wrote to us wondering this Where do conservatives fit into Vermont or are they not wanted here?

I'm curious to hear how you both would respond to Mariam Cite being in the political minority in the state affect how you advocate for the policies that you believe in.

John Rodgers Yeah, that's an interesting question.

I've always been a moderate and really struggle sometimes with both the left and the right.

And I think part of the problem in this country is that the left and the right can't get along.

When I first got elected to the legislature in 2003, the balance in the state house was very close and the moderate Republicans and Democrats in the middle could swing the vote, which brought about balanced legislation that was good for Vermonters.

And that's what I would like to get back to you guys.

I mean, it's a pretty good question.

And thank you, Miriam.

The as a conservative in Vermont, you know, I was interviewed out in Milwaukee about being red in a blue state by a public access TV station in Boston.

And, you know, we just talked about talking to people, giving them our truth, our policies, how our policies are better the then the current leadership in Montpelier and about making it about we the people.

Transparency.

Freedom.

Independence, innovation.

Liberty, you know, stuff like that.

Personal responsibility.

And our policies do that.

Thank you.

And just for for our listeners clarity, you mentioned Milwaukee, you recently were at the Republican National Convention as a delegate for the Republican Party.

An anonymous audience member asked through our citizens agenda, what is your perspective on the separation of church and state?

Is this an issue in Vermont?

Gregory Thayer Thank you.

Anonymous caller That's great.

You know, I you know, I understand the Constitution, the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights.

But I you know, there's so much interwoven in around winding of of government and religion.

And so I don't really think you know, I think it's all been interpreted in a different in the wrong way, because I think we are you know, we are one.

And the church does a lot of things for the community.

I'm a Catholic.

I'm a practicing staunch Catholic.

And we do a lot in our community.

And I think that we need that.

And people go and get services from hospitals and colleges and government pays for it.

So.

So do you think there is an issue with church and state being too far apart in Vermont?

I think they need to work better together.

I really do.

And I think they did that during COVID.

You know what happened with COVID.

So thank you.

John Rodgers.

Oh, I totally believe it's it's hugely important to have a clear divide between church and state.

In our Constitution, we have freedom of religion, which means no matter what religion you believe in or no religion at all, you are supposed to be provided with the same protections.

And so, you know, some people think our government should be a Christian government, but we have other religions here that we need to respect and we have atheists that we need to respect as well.

How do you think that balance is going here in Vermont?

I think the balance in Vermont works fine for the most part.

I think there are certain politicians that want to bring religion into government.

I, I personally find it dangerous.

Just because they aren't interwoven doesn't mean they can't work together.

And like Greg said, we have a lot of great churches that really provide a lot of support and help for their communities.

And that's wonderful.

And at times they they work with government.

But I think the dividing line needs to remain clear.

Thank you.

Well, another anonymous listener in Chittenden County asked a question about drug use in Vermont.

That question is, how do you plan to address the growing illegal drug use that is so openly visible in our cities and towns?

And this listener writes that they understand that this is a very complex problem that needs a multi-pronged approach, but they want to know how you, as a potential lieutenant governor, will help.

And John Rodgers, we'll start with you.

Yes, sure.

As lieutenant governor, I think we need to first off, we need to be sure that we're offering every opportunity for treatment for those who have gotten caught up in it.

But I think our main focus needs to be public safety.

We need to give the police and the judiciary the tools they need to go after the people who are trafficking drugs into this state and dealing them in our communities and make sure that the punishment fits the crime.

Thank you.

Yeah, I don't think I could say it any better.

Public safety.

We just saw it happen or what's going on right now in in Burlington with the repeat offender drug user that attacked an officer.

And so we need to we need to have the laws on the books that we can take care of that.

But we also need to have we need we got to stop those public injections going on when a family is walking by and, you know, so-and-so was injecting right in front of people.

That stuff can happen because it's not just our citizens, but our tourists.

And we depend on tourist dollars.

Right.

So I think we you know, we need to address this as a as a as communities and take care of it.

31 seconds for each of you.

Craig Grosser with you, flights are safe.

Injection sites, which were just passed by the Vermont legislature, did not support them, Michaela, at all.

I think there's other ways to do that.

I think it just rewards bad behavior because of the things I've heard that these sites will have for the people using them.

And I think that I think that we need to do it in a in a we need to be a little more strict on that and try and work ways and have systems and counselors and programs available, get people off from that junk.

Thank you.

John Rodgers.

Sure.

I personally, I support any way that we can help addicts receive treatment and and stop them from overdosing.

I want to look at what is the most efficient way to provide those services and make sure that there are services for everyone who wants them.

I know in some jurisdictions they say that the safe injection sites have helped.

In others, they've given up on them.

I'm not sure if it's the best way to spend our money right now, but I'm certainly interested in looking at every avenue to help get addicts clean.

Yeah, well, we have time for a brief lightning round before the end of the debate.

This is my favorite part in life.

Please keep your answers as short as possible, 10 seconds or less.

And I have a lot of these, so I'm very excited to get to as many as possible.

Excuse me.

Oh, I can tell you.

32.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Don't worry.

All right.

Our first question is about the minimum wage in Vermont.

Should Vermont raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour?

It is currently.

$13.67.

John Rodgers.

I don't know if that's a yes or no answer.

Kerr Should Vermont raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour?

It seems like in this day and age, everybody should be making at least $15 an hour unless they're training or their youth.

Okay.

So so yes.

Unless you are under 18 with a caveat.

Okay.

Gregory Thayer, I say no.

I believe in market solutions and I believe that most businesses are probably paying that already depends on the type of job and the employee.

But there's a lot of unskilled labor out there, a lot of jobs that don't need skill.

It's doing a, you know, a job.

So I think having a job and a paycheck is the most important thing.

A person can have.

All right.

Do you think we should increase wages for Vermont lawmakers, including the lieutenant governor?

Gregory They're not.

Absolutely not.

All right.

John Rodgers, I think no, because I think it makes it a full time job and it is not supposed to be that should Vermont paid family leave for all workers?

I am not in favor of that because businesses have to pay for it.

And as a business owner, I would have pay for it even and not get the opportunity to use it because I'm self-employed.

No, no.

Are you confident that the 2024 national elections will be fairly run?

Gregory Thayer I hope so.

You know, it's all I can say.

I hope so, but we'll see.

Yeah.

What about the statewide?

I hope so.

You know, I just hope so.

I just hope so.

But not confident.

No doubt.

John.

I'm confident.

Yes.

Both national and statewide elections can be fairly right.

And I believe in the results of the last election as well.

Is Vermont doing its fair share to address climate change in comparison to other states?

John Rodgers No, because a lot of their policies are regressive and do not make real climate change action happen.

Gregory Thayer No, because it's what they're doing.

It's too expensive.

The Global Warming Solutions Act, the home he Act need to be repealed.

We've just got new evidence about how much those are really going to cost.

No, no.

All right.

Thank you.

And lastly, did FEMA do adequate job in responding to the July 2023 flooding?

Gregory Thayer From what I know, I think they did.

I'm not sure because I didn't get affected by it.

But I know, you know, there's a lot of people working hard and everything.

So, you know, I thank them for their service.

Thank you.

John Rodgers from what I've seen, they've all the government agencies that worked together did a real good job in a tough situation.

Thank you.

Real quick, champ, real or not.

Gregory Real absolu.

All right.

We have consensus.

It is time now for a closing statement from each candidate.

The order was determined randomly before the show.

And John Rodgers, you are going to start us off tonight to go first all the time.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mikhail.

I am just rolling lucky, right?

Yeah.

Greg, it was really great for you folks to have this.

Really appreciate the opportunity.

I just want Vermonters to know that I intend to be a lieutenant governor like no other.

I want to be an advocate and a voice of working class Vermonters and bring that voice back into the state house and actively work with senators and other legislators to forward bills that are good for working class Vermonters and fight against bills that are bad for working class Vermonters.

I have the support of a huge amount of the active legislators and four former legislators, as well as the governor of the state of Vermont.

Because the governor wants a lieutenant governor that he can work with.

And I look forward to meeting more people around the state and spreading our message.

And I think we can really make a difference come November.

Thank you.

Thank you, Gregory Thayer.

Thank you.

And again, thank you to Vermont Public.

I love the new name.

The branding is great, but I'm Gregory Thayer Republic for Vermont lieutenant governor.

And I'm a common sense Republican.

And I just want people to know that my whole campaign is about you.

We the people that we've been going around the state, we're still going around the state listening and hearing your concerns, your hopes and your fears.

And I'm going to be a lieutenant governor that is going to work for the people.

My doors will always be open.

And and I get out and I see people and, you know, I don't I think there's a lot of bad things going on up in Montpelier and overspending, overregulating and overtaxation.

We're not efficient.

We're not effective.

We're not there for the people.

I've been out there for the people, and I'm going to continue.

So I love Vermont.

It's my home.

It's everything to me and my family.

So again, I'm Gregory Thayer for Vermont lieutenant governor.

Thank you and God bless you all.

This concludes the Republican primary debate for lieutenant governor on Vermont public.

Many thanks to the two candidates for being on the program today.

John Rodgers of West Glover and Gregory Thayer of Rutland.

Join us tomorrow for the Democratic primary debates for lieutenant governor with Thomas Renner and the current lieutenant governor, David Zuckerman.

You can submit questions for that debate by emailing Vermont edition at Vermont Public dot org through our citizens agenda form and Vermont Public dot org Election Front Porch Forum is Vermont Public's lead outreach partner for the Citizens Agenda Project.

The Vermont Public Debate Series is produced by Holt Albee and Daniella Ferro with full production support from Andrea Laurent, Dave Rice, Brian Stevenson, Kyle Ambusk, Kaylie Mumford, Joey Palumbo, Riley Cartwright and Frank Alwine.

Audio Engineering by Peter English and our radio production was by Mary English.

I'm Mikaela Lefrak.

Thanks for listening listening.