Welcome to the Vermont Public 2024 Primary Election Debates.

I'm Mikaela Lefrak, the host of Vermont Edition.

Today we're bringing you our third and final debate ahead of the August 13th primary.

Today is the debate between the Democratic candidates for lieutenant governor live today in the Vermont public studio in downtown Winooski, our Thomas Renner of Winooski, where he is the deputy mayor.

Formerly, he worked on Becca Balint Congressional Campaign as well as for Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy.

Welcome.

Thank you for having me.

Really happy to be here.

We're also joined by David Zuckerman of Hinesburg.

He is the current lieutenant governor of Vermont and a farmer.

He previously served seven terms in the Vermont House of Representatives, two terms in the state Senate.

And he's currently serving his third term as lieutenant governor today.

Get all those numbers right.

He did.

All right.

Welcome to the program.

Thank you for having me.

Vermont public is approaching our election coverage a little differently than we have in the past.

We've adopted a model called the Citizen's Agenda.

More than 550 Vermonters have weighed in with us on the issues they care most about and what they want candidates to discuss ahead of the election.

Throughout today's debate, you'll hear some of those questions.

We'll also spend some extra time on issues that we've gotten the most comments about.

If you want to participate, there is still lots of election coverage ahead of November in the next few months.

You can go to Vermont public dot org to share your election thoughts.

Excuse me Vermont public dorgan's election to share your thoughts.

Here is the format that we're going to use today and throughout the 2024 primary debates.

In the first segment, I'll ask questions from our citizens agenda and the Vermont public.

NEWSROOM responses are limited to 60 seconds.

In the second segment, the candidates will have an opportunity to ask each other questions with a brief follow up question.

Candidates have 30 seconds to ask their question and responses are limited to 60 seconds.

In the third segment will return to questions from our citizens agenda and the Vermont public newsroom responses.

They are limited to 30 seconds.

If we have time, we'll have a lightning round of questions with very brief answers.

10 seconds or less.

Will conclude our program with one minute closing statements from each candidate.

We'll start with questions for both of you.

Please limit your answers to 60 seconds.

And a reminder, I may ask follow up questions.

What motivates you to run for lieutenant governor and why do you think you are the most qualified candidate for this job?

Thomas Renner, we'll start with you.

Yeah, I thank you for that question.

I really appreciate it.

So my motivation is, is that I see that in Vermont, we were the one amazing state that has these amazing values of uplifting young voices, uplifting diversity, uplifting democratic values.

And those things are all really important to me.

Those are things that I am body.

And I see the the office of lieutenant governor is this amazing messaging office and office that can message those democratic values, but also those Vermont values.

And I think what better person to represent that than somebody who's been the deputy mayor of our most of our city in Vermont, somebody who has been working on those issues with members of our federal delegation, Senator Leahy and Congresswoman Bella, like you mentioned earlier, the office of Talent.

Governor, is this amazing place where we can really highlight what Vermont does.

And and it's something that I'm deeply excited to do.

Thank you.

So this is the first time that you're running for statewide office and this position is second in line to the governorship.

Why do you consider yourself ready to take the helm of state government if the governor is unable to serve?

Yeah, certainly.

That's a great question.

I've had a lot of experience in politics.

I dedicated my career.

I started my career in politics, working for Senator Leahy, who was somebody who taught me about policy and how to move the best things forward for Vermonters.

As the deputy mayor of Winooski.

We work on really complicated things like really difficult budgets, big burdens projects, infrastructure projects.

And I'm somebody that I know that I can work with the governor if I were to be elected lieutenant governor.

I think that's really important to assume that role, to have a relationship with the person currently in the office.

Thank you, Lieutenant Governor.

Same question to you.

Sure.

Thank you.

Well, what motivates me is when I look at my daughter who just graduated high school and I think about her future, I think about a future in Vermont where folks have an opportunity to work, live and play without being stressed every minute of the day to just meet their basic needs.

Motivates me is my friends who farm in the inner Vale or along the Mississippi River or Dog River or now up in Saint Johnsbury, who are impacted by climate change horrendously every day.

I mean, I know what those farmers or people whose homes have been washed away.

That's that's life's work.

And it's gone.

You know, seasonal farming is tough work.

I know that personally.

And to lose it all midseason is something we have to work to reduce those kinds of impacts.

I think about the folks on First Street, Second Street, Third Street in Bury, where I just visited a couple of weeks ago after the, you know, third time they've been flooded in two years.

And the stress, the mental health issues that start to come from these kinds of repeated traumas and how we have so much more to do and it just to work with people across Vermont who are amazing, helping each other to try to make it better.

Well, Lieutenant Governor, you've previously served many years in both the House and the Senate.

And this is your currently your third term as lieutenant governor.

What more do you see yourself accomplishing in this role?

Do you see it as a stepping stone to a higher office?

Well, a couple of things there.

First of all, right, now, with next session having 16 new members in the last two years, the last AM in this coming biennium, one of the roles is to make sure that that process runs smoothly, that democracy works.

I mean, you think about how many people have been in the doldrums for the last six months prior to the Biden-Harris shift, thinking about what's happening to our democracy with social media, with with respect for each other, serving at the podium.

Running those meetings is a big part of decorum and respect for our system.

So there's a lot to offer there right now at this moment and the political realities as far as stepping stone, who knows what's next.

All right.

Well, let's move on to our most asked about topic in our citizens agenda, climate change.

The night before it last, extreme rain in Caledonia and six counties caused destructive flooding for the second time this month.

We need to about two dozen swift water rescues globally.

Last year was the hottest year in recorded history.

Hope Enchanting County writes.

Vermont is subjected to weather events, threatening lives and livelihoods.

How will you prepare for and prevent climate change and subsequent emergencies?

Lieutenant Governor, we'll start with you this time.

Well, there's so many things that we each can do individually, plus what can be done at the state level.

I have been a long, long time advocate about around renewable energy, wind power, solar power and reducing our energy consumption.

From a policy perspective, I've been outspoken leader on that.

I think that's one of the reasons I have the Vermont Conservation Voters endorsement.

But on top of that, personally, we've installed many, many solar panels on one of the roofs of our barns because of the energy it takes to cool down produce.

It's a big bill.

It's over $1,000 a month.

And so we've cut that way back using the power of the sun to cool the produce that we grow as a organic, regenerative farmer.

We also grow a lot of cover crops.

Cover crops are good for the farmer by putting carbon and nutrients into the soil for the next crops.

But they're also good for everybody because plants absorb carbon.

And so I've got fields of hay that we believe to grow and to be habitat for everything from monarch butterflies and other other birds and beasts out there to what we do on the land that we operate.

So there's a range of things that I do personally, as well as what I do in the political world solar panels are expensive.

Do you think the state is doing enough to help farmers take actions like you have who can't put up those upfront costs?

They are very expensive and I'm fortunate that I was able to put some up.

Not as many as I needed reached the maximum what I could do.

There's federal grants that I have not applied for because I've been in political office.

So I felt like that was a risk of perceived whatevers.

But there's always more to do.

I think most of our incentives for renewable energy and so forth are tax credits which help people that have some means and have tax exposure.

But we're not nearly doing enough for everyday working people who are living paycheck to paycheck, where renewable energy is out of reach, and therefore the savings are out of reach.

And so then they're made to feel guilty for not doing enough.

That's where we have to spend our time and money.

Thank you.

Thomas Renner, same question to you.

How will you prepare for and prevent climate change and subsequent emergencies?

Yeah, thank you for the question.

When I worked for Congresswoman Clement, Energy and Environment were actually some of the topics that I covered working on those issues at the federal level.

It's critically important that we invest in wind, solar, public transportation, building our vehicle charging network.

All of those things can have a huge impact, even though they seem small.

And also another thing that I think that we can really focus on is we know that we need to build more homes in Vermont.

We want to we need to do those thinking of the impact on the climate.

We need to be using our heat pumps.

We need to be making sure that those homes are well insulated.

And on top of that, we need to be weatherizing old homes in Vermont that just use up tons of fossil fuels and then spill those out into the environment.

Doing those things, you know, some Vermonters say to me, well, what can I do that can even make an impact?

Those types of things are things that individual Vermonters can do to make that impact, and then the state can continue and make those investments and pressure the federal government to make those investments as well, so that we can have those renewable energies that are so important for fighting climate change.

Well, according to the National Climate Assessment, winter temperatures in particular are warming nearly twice as fast as summer temperatures.

That is very bad for a place like Vermont where it's winter a lot of the year.

How do you propose supporting businesses and Vermont's tourist economy that rely so heavily on snow and cold temperatures?

Through all of these changes?

Yeah, I mean, we definitely noticed that it's not as cold.

The mosquitoes have been crazy this year, for example, we have a huge winter industry that we need to make sure that we're protecting.

Of course, they can make snow, but that's very expensive.

And it also there are negative repercussions to doing that as well.

So we have to be fighting climate change and advocating for those climate change fights across the country so that we can limit what is happening here in Vermont and then coming up with programs that will support those businesses that are impacted, helping them to diversify the type of tourism that they attract, and maybe focusing on some more tourism in the summer and spring months.

A follow up question for both of you.

I'll give you 30 seconds to answer.

You're both in different types of leadership roles here, Deputy Mayor, you're the lieutenant governor.

Can you name one thing that you did specifically to help fellow Vermonters in the wake of the recent flooding in July, either in the past couple of days or earlier this month?

Lieutenant Governor.

Well, sure.

I just mentioned the folks in Bury.

I went and helped knock out some basements in Bury.

So that's an individual help.

And then also, as lieutenant governor, we've used all of the communications that I have, whether it's the lieutenant governor newsletter that goes out to over 10,000 Vermonters.

Anybody can sign up for that on the lieutenant governor's website, where we put out information not only about what's happening during the political session, but also things like where to get support services in the case of a flood.

So we've been putting information out through that and on our social media and in every sort of way we can to get the word out.

You know, during the last flood, my friend Keisha Rama and I and some other folks, we did a lot of work gathering supplies and money to donate to the places that were impacted when these floods happened.

Again, we did the same thing.

And we're currently and actively working on continuing to distribute those items.

I'm personally as well, I went down to Barre when it happened and I did some volunteering and I did that last time.

But, you know, similar to the lieutenant governor, using social media to try to amplify what has happened and to try to help the people in those situations, let people know where there are volunteer efforts that they can join.

I find that Vermonters all want to help each other and pitch in.

And it's been amazing to see.

Thank you.

Well, we received many, many messages ahead of today's debate about the lack of housing in the state.

Becky in Windsor County wants to know how Vermont should balance the huge need to build affordable housing with protecting our environment.

It's a big question.

Thomas Renner, we'll start with you.

Yes.

So we need affordable housing.

We need all sorts of housing, actually.

We need to seriously invest in our housing across all different life spectrums.

And I like to talk about the one escape model.

And one is that we've really focused our housing on our downtown and on our main street.

We haven't done these big projects that you see as we're driving around Winooski and our neighborhoods, for example.

And I think that that method can be passed across the state and we can build on our main streets.

Every town has a main street, no matter how small it is.

Maybe it's just a post office, but right next to it we can build a unit, a condo unit, or an apartment unit without destroying the environment that is around it.

We move to Vermont and we stay in Vermont because we love what it looks like.

I do believe that we can build and we can get the housing stock that we need for Vermonters and to attract new people to come here without altering what our natural beauty looks like.

What about for for a smaller town, maybe in a more rural part of the state that doesn't have the water and sewer infrastructure, doesn't have the roundabout in the middle of town, like, would you ski?

Does it say you can't quite copy and paste, copy and paste 100%, but that's where the state needs to step in and help those towns with those infrastructure projects.

You know, I'm just glad we were able to bond, but a town that's 200 people can't bond for that type of expense.

So that's why the state and the federal government really needs to become partners with these towns in building up that infrastructure, the water and the sewer that they need in order to get the housing that they deserve.

Thank you, Governor.

Well, there's no doubt we need to put money into housing.

That's the bottom line.

There are a couple of different bills in the legislature.

Last year, that one was around restructuring, permitting.

The governor supported it, really, really tearing down a lot of activity to sort of allow for housing everywhere.

And the cost of housing won't change unless we actually put money into bringing down the cost.

The materials are too high, the labor is too high.

And so I supported the House version, which actually put $75 million a year and I was planning for many, many years, at least ten years into buying down the cost of housing so we could have affordable housing as well as the quantity of housing.

And as Thomas said, we need all kinds of housing in town and village centers, probably smaller unit housing, whether it's for seniors or for young couples or for individuals, so that they can have more dense housing.

Walk to your local facilities, your local country store, your local gas station, your local whatever, in order to reduce the carbon footprint as well.

So you can build a few dense, small unit scenarios to really open up some of the houses that could fit families there right now when they have a single person.

So you can do multiple levels to make it work.

$75 million a year for ten years.

That's a lot of money for a small state.

Where was that going to come from?

Actually is going to come from a 3% marginal tax, which means top rate tax on those making over $500,000.

And to put that number into sort of context for folks, that means someone with $1,000,000 income but only pay 15,000 more.

But in aggregate, we have enough wealthy Vermonters because we've actually had a growing number of wealthy, high income Vermonters, that that would raise $75 million a year.

Yeah.

Let's pause here for a little conversation about the wealth tax.

I like to give you 30 seconds to discuss your stances on it, and maybe you could try to convince somebody who doesn't support it.

There's a lot of folks out there who don't that it's a good idea.

And lieutenant governor wants to make sure what I was just about was an income tax, which is slightly different, but as a whole, what we have seen is wealthier folks have been able to move to Vermont.

You know, if Boston or New York, they sold their house after COVID or they moved from Florida because of politics or south southern Mississippi because of the climate.

Those are the kinds of people that I've heard moving to Vermont when I meet them at the farmers market, all those different reasons, and they've got the resources.

You sell a house in Boston or New York for a million or a million and a half dollars.

You can buy a house in Vermont and outrace everybody else.

And that's what we've seen for the last couple of years.

That's why just building more housing isn't going to make affordable housing as well.

But people are moving here.

They want to live in Vermont.

We're not going to drive people away.

The statistics are very clear.

Public assets Institute and others have shown that some move out, others move in.

Thomas Turner Yeah, I think a lot of the fear that folks have about it is that they it hasn't fully explained.

So it wasn't Governor just did a great job.

It's actually $15,000 on $1,000,000.

What I say, I hope not, is that 15 if I misspoke.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's on the same page.

Yeah.

Okay, perfect.

Perfect.

I think most Vermonters who have a lot of money, who have been able to take advantage of what we have here in Vermont, the community that we have here, when they realize that that's the type of money that we're talking about, they will want to participate and give back to their community.

The business owners that I talked to understand that they have received things here in Vermont that have enabled them to make that wealth and they want to be part of their community.

While we're talking taxes, let's keep talking taxes.

It was a very, very big issue this past year in particular.

Property taxes are set to increase by an average of nearly 14% in Vermont.

Greg, interesting county wants to know what steps and positions will you take to keep Vermont affordable and reduce property taxes?

And Lieutenant Governor, we'll start with you here.

Sure.

There's a number of things there.

One, I will continue to reach out to the governor's office whenever he's ready to work together to really look at our education fund expenses and our human services fund expenses around the kids that need both.

We've seen under this governor about a $60 million tax shift on to the property tax side of the equation by pushing human services costs onto the end fund.

And that's something that people don't realize.

And when we compare ourselves to other states, we're not comparing apples to apples because other states pay for that with human services.

So that's simply a management side of things as well as an efficiency side of things.

But also we're seeing the wealthiest 1% of Vermonters pay only 3% of their income towards the end fund, whereas working class middle 60% of Vermonters pay between three and a half and four and a half percent.

So if we made the income sensitive, sensitive, sensitive portion of property taxes apply to everybody, it would be about a $30 million savings for working class people and a $30 million increase on the wealthiest.

So those are two of them.

There's actually there's more, but I'm not.

Yeah.

Well, two follow up questions for you here.

One, you said Governor Scott, whenever he's ready to work together, should Vermonters be concerned that you and the governor don't have a good working relationship?

I don't think they should be concerned.

They've seen that he and I both do reasonably good work.

People seem to like it.

They've reelected both of us many times.

But I do think it's important for people to recognize that sometimes when the governor talks about issues like the property tax increase, for instance, he wagged his finger at the legislature when really he should be more honestly explaining how the system works, which is that that was the vote of all the people across the state in their local budgets.

And it's simply a formula.

It would have been 18%, but the legislature added more funding.

His proposal would have put us into debt.

It would have made us spend down all the reserves.

It would have ruined our credit rating and would have put more on a credit card for next year.

He hasn't really been forthright about that.

So I think at this point people want honesty from all of us more than papering over issues to get along.

Thank you.

Tavis Reiner, what steps and positions would you take to keep Vermont affordable and reduce property taxes?

So property taxes are definitely front of everybody's mind.

That's what I hear as I travel across the states talking with people.

And the education portion is is huge on that.

You know, as deputy mayor of Winooski, I worked really hard to bring down our municipal tax rate.

Of course, I didn't have any influence over the education portion of that.

But we need to look into new revenue forms of funding, education tax, whether that be sales taxes, something like that to contribute towards education.

And we also need to look at how we fund education creatively.

We need to look at how our schools are operating creatively.

You know, we know that we have a dwindling population of students.

There's an impact to that.

There's a cost to that.

So we really need to be looking at the entire education system very holistically and proposing no changes if that's what we need in order to make it affordable for Vermonters.

Vermonters want students to have the best education that they can.

I haven't talked to a single Vermonter who doesn't want that, but what's concerning is when you're paying more money for education, but the students are getting less.

When music classes are being cut, language classes are being cut.

People don't understand what they're paying more money for less.

And that's what we really need to address.

You mentioned the possibility of increasing the sales tax that's on the table for you.

Yeah, I think it's an option that we should explore.

You know, sales tax isn't just something that Vermonters contribute into, it's visitors as well.

I mean, I think that educating our youth is something that everybody who comes to Vermont should take a part in.

One brief follow up question for for each of you.

David Zuckerman, the governor.

The issues with Vermont's property tax equation came to a head this past spring, but this has been building for years and years.

You've served more than two decades in the Vermont House and the Senate.

You're currently in your third term as lieutenant governor.

What responsibility do you think the Democratic and progressive parties in the state and yourself, by extension, bear for this rise in property taxes this year?

Well, I think it's a product of years of work to make sure everyone has an equal opportunity to raise funds for their schools.

People forget that our current formula was put in place because property wealthy towns could have very low taxes and fund really good schools and property poor towns.

Those rural small towns with 200 or 500 people with a low tax base in it, really struggled to raise funds for their schools.

So we created a system that made it so everybody could have the funding for their schools at a fair tax rate.

Now we're looking at changes that need to be made.

The governor has actually the staff and the administration to create new ideas, and he's been in office for eight years.

The legislature is seasonal.

They're doing their best.

They've made changes over the years.

The last change with the waiting kind of threw things off a bit.

And that's part of what triggered all of this.

I wasn't in the legislature during that two years, so I don't really take much responsibility for that.

And Thomas Renner.

On that note, I'm curious to hear what you would have advocated for.

Were you in a position like lieutenant governor during this past legislative session, maybe spoken to the governor about he put forward his own proposals about how to lower that property tax burden.

Do you agree or disagree with what he put forth?

You know, the governor is very popular.

I'm a Democrat and I didn't necessarily agree with everything that he was doing.

What I do commend him for is hearing the concerns that Vermonters have been talking about, about the concerns of affordability.

His approach wasn't the best one.

But I think that if I had been in the governor's office, I would have tried to work with him on that and work with the legislature and get into an approach that the legislature would have appreciated.

The Democrats who are in control would have appreciated.

It's work that I've done.

I want to see, as I mentioned, bringing down that property tax rate while keeping the programs that Winooski residents deserve, which is what we ended up doing, is going a little slower on the things that we wanted to get to.

I think it's important to do that at the state level as well, to look at things pragmatically.

Thank you.

Well, we've touched on education.

Let's dove a little bit deeper now.

The issue Ruth in Addison County cares most about is public education a common topic in our citizens agenda?

Ruth is really worried about the tenor of the conversation around school funding and consolidation.

Meanwhile, a citizen in Washington County wants to know how do we reform education spending without gutting our schools?

So we've touched on this.

Let's let's go a bit deeper.

Thomas Renner Yeah.

So my, my dad and my step mom, our teachers, a lot of my friends are teachers.

I have strong appreciation for that, for that work and for what they do to prepare the next generation of Vermonters and Americans consolidating schools.

You know, something that people talk about frequently when we're talking about saving money.

And I think it really needs to be looked at if we're talking about putting kids on a bus for, you know, 30 minutes to an hour to consolidate that school, that doesn't make any sense.

That's going to negatively impact the child.

If we're talking about consolidating schools that are 10 minutes away from each other, maybe that does make sense.

Maybe that's something we should look into and there could be a cost savings there and children won't be impacted as much.

I think that that's the type of conversations that we need to start having in Montpelier to reduce costs so that we can keep the level of education at a high standard to address the second question that the that the viewer posed, nobody wants an education system that doesn't prepare Vermont students to go to the best colleges, the best trade schools.

We want to make sure that we're funding that, but we really need to look at it in a different way.

Related question to school funding.

There's a lot of deferred maintenance costs right now in Vermont's public schools.

Do you think the schools should continue testing for PCBs?

And if so, how do we fund mitigation efforts like that?

Yeah, they definitely should keep testing.

We need to make sure that our students are safe.

In terms of the mitigation efforts in Winooski, just add a brand new school we bonded for.

It cost a lot of money and we'll be paying for it for a long time.

Towns that can afford to do that should look into it.

Towns that cannot or definitely need support from the federal government.

We built all these schools, many of them in the sixties, and there was no plan to keep them up.

Now it's the turn of the federal government in the state government to make those investments because we know that it's not just pe faster in these schools.

Some of these schools are have flaws that are breaking apart.

They have AC or heating units that don't work.

That doesn't lead to the best way for our students to be educated.

Thank you.

And same question to you, lieutenant governor.

What how do we reform education spending without getting our schools?

Well, there's a number of factors and one that I will say my distinguish has quite a bit is I do not support raising the sales tax for more money for schools.

That is a very regressive tax.

And while tourists might pay some of that, it's still a huge portion is paid by working class Vermonters who just can't take any more on their shoulders.

What I would consider doing is second homes.

Second homes are the second highest.

Second homeownership state in the country of 58,000 to second homes in Vermont and one third of our towns.

They pay a lower property tax rate than primary residences.

So there's a revenue stream there that I think is one we should tap into to make sure the burden is not just on Vermonters, but not in the regressive way of a sales tax.

I would consider looking at high school consolidation more than elementary school, because I agree, particularly with young kids of first grader, second grader.

A one hour bus trip is just not in the cards.

That's not good for those kids.

Ideally, no.

Our bus trips are good for anybody, but a high schooler can get more done on a bus.

They're they're bit more mature.

But I think, you know, the Carson decision is a huge issue as well.

We need to make sure the private schools have to meet the same standards as public schools if they're going to get public dollars.

And I'll just close by saying, when it comes to education, I've got the endorsement of the teacher's union, the NEA.

And I think teachers know what they're doing.

We need to let them teach.

Well, Ruth in Madison County, who I quoted earlier, was particularly concerned about the tenor of conversation around school funding.

Earlier this year, you sent out an email urging senators to vote down Governor Scott's pick for education Secretary Zoe Saunders.

And Governor Scott then called you out for questioning her record and tying her to Florida's efforts to remove some books from school libraries.

Saunders also said that there were false claims in that email.

You publicly apologized to her after her nomination was voted down by the Senate.

In this time of such partizan politics and heated rhetoric, why did you send that email?

Well, I thought it was really important to look at our schools.

Our schools are the foundation of our towns, our communities and the future of our kids.

This governor has pushed back on public schools every single year in office.

He has denigrated our public schools.

He has said it's too expensive, which is partly true, but he hasn't point out why he hasn't produced solutions.

And when he provided a nominee picked by a group of people that he mostly nominated on to the education board so when he says I was limited by who they put forward, that group has his political ideology to shrink public schools, increase private schools with public dollars, everything about that nomination was in question, and I wasn't the only one to question it.

The one error I made and to own that up was that I connected her getting an award from the state of Florida with Governor DeSantis, and that was an inaccurate tie.

The rest of it was comments about Florida.

I didn't say she wanted to ban books, but if you look at that school system and that politics, that's a fair concern about Florida relative to critical thinking and free thinking that we believe in here.

Thank you.

Well, that concludes the first segment of this debate.

When we come back, candidates are going to have an opportunity to ask each other questions.

I'm Mikayla Lefrak and this is the Democratic primary debate for lieutenant governor on Vermont public.

Stay with us.

This is the Vermont public Democratic primary debate for lieutenant governor.

I'm Mikayla Lefrak in the Vermont public studio in downtown Winooski.

Joining us today are David Zuckerman of Hynes Berg, the current lieutenant governor, and Thomas Renner of Winooski, where he is the deputy mayor.

The candidates will now have an opportunity to ask each other questions.

The question should not be longer than 30 seconds, and the responses are limited to 60 seconds.

And a reminder, you can ask a brief follow up question.

And David Zuckerman, we will start with you.

Lieutenant Governor.

Sure.

Last biennium, the Senate passed a bill to study ranked choice voting, a bill that would allow candidates and voters more choices and eliminate the spoiler problem in three races.

They passed it on a vote of 23 to 7.

The House didn't take up the bill.

Do you agree with House leadership that stop the bill or do you agree with Senate leadership that passed it?

I am a fan of ranked choice voting.

I've seen how it works in other places.

Burlington has it going on there.

We've talked about doing that one to ski.

Yeah, I support it.

Do you have any follow ups?

Is there something you could pass on to House leadership that express your frustration with why they didn't take it up when the plan had been come over from the Senate and passed the bill?

I'll be seeing some of them this week.

I can I can have that conversation.

Great.

All right.

Thomas Renner, your turn to ask a question.

Certainly sort of recent form that we attended, we were asked a question about President Biden, who happened to be the day that he had passed on the baton to Kamala Harris.

And you spoke very much in favor of empowering young leaders of the need for diverse folks in politics.

When do you think it will be your time to pass on the torch to a younger, more diverse leader?

Well, I think when someone runs for the office that has the breadth of experience needed to be governor on day one, if something happens, that's important.

I also think it's important to consider all the different factors with every candidate.

So for me, diversity is incredibly important and it is absolutely.

Whenever things are close, I will vote for the more diverse candidate.

When it comes to Secretary of State, for instance, I supported Sara Coleman Heinz's, who I have a lot of respect for.

Chris Winters was also highly qualified.

So for me, identity matters, but it's not the number one issue.

Do you have a follow up question?

That answers the question.

Thank you.

Thank you, lieutenant Governor, for your time.

All right.

Another last biennium question.

There was a big divide among Democrats because you talk about Democratic priorities, but there's different priorities.

The House Democrats went with a very structured and specific changes to Act 250 plus money to go into affordable housing, marginal tax rate.

The Senate leadership on the on the Economic Development Committee was more in line with the governor's plans to open free market to create more housing to somehow lower prices again.

Which of those versions do you prefer?

Investment to make it affordable or taking apart a lot of activity?

I definitely think we need to continue making efforts back to 50.

The work that the legislature did last biennium, the work that Senator Rom did in her housing bill, I think are all things that are moving us to where we need to be active.

50 was created at a time and it made a lot of sense when it was created.

I don't think that we should completely turned the thing apart.

I think that we just need to continue editing it so that we can get the housing that we want in Vermont, so we can get affordable housing and also keep what makes Vermont amazing.

He didn't really answer which of those versions the house because because it's a mixture of the both I would want to continue those conversations and to try to get those versions closer to each other.

Okay.

Thomas Renner.

Yeah.

So I'd like to talk a little more about property taxes because it's so, so important, the work I didn't want to see, we took a 14% property tax that had been proposed to us from our city manager.

And I worked really hard to bring that down to 8%, which I'm so thankful I did now, because if we had been at 14% plus what the school needed, I don't think many residents would've been able to afford that.

What specifically have you done in order to lower taxes for Vermonters?

Well, quite a few things.

Certainly over many years I've worked on moving towards increasing our progressivity in our income taxes.

And at times the legislature has passed such bills.

As I pointed out, I've also supported changes like moving to an income based tax for all people, for education funding, not just the 70% of working class Vermonters.

For many years I supported a $2 rooms tax to put towards affordable housing.

And when you look at rooms because you were discussing tourism earlier, 70 or 80% of our room rentals are out-of-staters.

That would make that a less regressive tax to go towards affordable housing, for instance.

Do you have a follow up question?

Thank you.

I have a follow up question on that then.

All right.

Yeah.

Just yesterday we had the debate with the Republican candidates for the same position for lieutenant governor there.

We discussed when we were talking about housing at large, we talked about short term rentals.

Somebody had written in to us from our citizens agenda to ask, should there be more regulation of short term rentals either on a statewide or a local level?

And would that do anything to address the shortage of affordable housing?

I'd love to hear both of your answers on that in about 30 seconds.

And Thomas Renner, let's start with you.

Yes, we just enacted something.

I want to ask you to address short term rentals.

It's doesn't go as far as we want.

But again, that's that pragmatic approach I was speaking about where we're trying something now, which is essentially registration and charging fees to folks who operate short term rentals.

We have variances on that depending if you live in your home or if you're an out-of-state or, for example.

But we know that short term rentals just in Winooski alone have taken 80 properties off of the market and across it's hundreds upon hundreds.

It definitely ties into the to the crisis that we have in housing right now.

And I think that we should be exploring ways on on how to change that.

Thank you, Governor.

Absolutely.

I worked with Michael Sirak in years ago trying to just get a short term rental registry.

So statewide, we don't even know exactly how many there are.

You mentioned hundreds, I would say thousands.

And if we then had a registry and we knew how many there were, we knew if they were owned, for instance, by someone in their own home, occasionally doing a bed and breakfast or a couple of weekends here and there for an extra room in their house or over their garage.

That's one thing.

But when you've got hedge funders and New Yorkers and Massachusetts folks buying property in Vermont, that should be long term rentals for working class Vermonters.

And now it's short term rentals for tourists.

They should definitely be paying more.

How how do you how do you separate those two types of of rentals?

Well, I think, first of all, you've got to have them registered so you know where they are.

You can then know who's who owns them.

Why are they in-home, for instance?

Is it in a home that's also a primary residence or is it not a primary residence if it's not a primary residence property, then you know that it's someone doing short term rentals as an investment.

It could also be a Vermont or doing it as an investment for that matter.

You certainly can't discriminate in state out-of-state, but you could say if it's in your home, that's one thing.

I think that's somewhat of what you maybe did.

But if it's an investment, that's another.

Yeah, well, I'm sorry, I have the same question for you.

I think the you know, it's a great idea to say, you know, we should let people who are doing this on a very small local level continue to have a short term rental.

But if it's a big corporation, then and no, how do you differentiate between the two practically?

Yeah.

So a rental registry is really important for that.

You know, we have one in Winooski, so we've been able to do that work of finding out who has a local owner, who is somebody who even owns and Winooski has Airbnb is in one of those skis.

So we've been able to draw that data down and it's important to be able to have that rental registry to do that.

So I think implementing that and getting people on board to do that is important.

And then, you know, the further steps and like I said, the reason we've started one is by just doing fees and fines for some things is because it is difficult to, you know, take away some of this business for them, for, for example.

So we need to do what we can now and then change the regulations for future Airbnb, be future owners.

Thank you.

Well, that concludes the second segment of our program.

When we come back, the candidates are going to excuse me, going to answer more questions from our citizens agenda and the NEWSROOM.

Also, take a drink of water.

I'm mikayla Lefrak and this is the Democratic primary debate for lieutenant governor on Vermont Public officials.

Welcome back.

This is the Vermont public Democratic primary debate for lieutenant governor.

I'm Mikayla Lefrak in the Vermont Public Studio in downtown Winooski.

Joining us today are Thomas Renner of Winooski and David Zuckerman of Hynes Berg, our current lieutenant governor, will now return two questions from our citizens agenda and the NEWSROOM.

And thank you to everybody who submitted questions or noted particular issues that you want the candidates to address.

And just a reminder, candidates to please limit your answers to 30 seconds here.

We're going to start with a question about health care.

An anonymous listener in Rutland County asks, How can we entice more doctors and health care professionals to move to Vermont?

And Lieutenant Governor, we will have you solve the health care crisis in 30 seconds.

You got it.

Well, a couple of things.

One is, in the long run, I think we have to move to a universal health care system.

We have a huge amount of money still going to the folks that do the paperwork to collect insurance payments and go back to the patients and go back to the insurance agents.

And that money could actually go towards funding actual health care, whether it's nurses or doctors.

We also earlier were talking about housing.

Housing is actually a burden for people across the economic spectrum.

There's just not enough of it, partly because so many have been moved to Airbnbs or second homes.

So again, addressing some of those issues as we talked about earlier, I think would make it more possible for more doctors to be here.

Thank you.

And Thomas Renner.

Yeah, I love this question.

I used to work at the hospital and I was very involved in trying to bring new doctors that would solve a lot of the wait times that they have up there.

There's not necessarily the doctors don't want to come to Vermont.

They in fact, do want to come to Vermont.

But it's housing.

Everything almost always ties back to housing.

We would get doctors who are literally ready to move here had started looking at school districts for their kids and couldn't find housing.

So that's why when I talk about housing, it's not just affordable housing.

Doctors can't live in affordable housing.

We need housing every single level.

Thank you.

Well, according to a recent report released by the Vermont Department of Health, one in three Vermonters will be over the age of 60 by 2030.

Pegg in Rutland County is concerned that there isn't enough older housing housing again and assisted care for aging Vermonters.

How do you think the state should address the growing needs of older Vermonters?

And is this a role of the state?

And Thomas Renner, we're starting with you this time.

Yeah, it's definitely a concern.

And, you know, housing and then another housing problem as these folks are living in these large homes where they raise their families and they want to leave, but they can't if they were able to, that would free up this big home where somebody can move in and raise their family.

So that particular part of the housing crisis touches so many others.

We need to encourage folks to move to Vermont to work the jobs that are necessary to take care of Vermonters who are aging and make sure that they can age and dignity in terms of the state being involved in that, it's all about making Vermont an attractive place for people to move.

Investing in the housing so that they can come here and then encouraging that type of that type of building and that type of shift of life.

Lieutenant Governor.

Well, I think we did touch on earlier with the housing topic.

And if we were to build smaller unit, denser housing in town and village centers for one, for a lot of those seniors that aren't necessarily in a position where they need to be in assisted living yet, but they can live in a compact village, town center where you could still walk to get some of your basic needs met.

That would be the kind of housing that folks could move out of those bigger, older houses into, to free up that housing.

I would just add that since we were discussing age and getting out of the way at 52, I don't consider myself that old.

And if you know, a third of Vermonters are over 60, then I guess I'm close to that cohort and I hope I get all their votes because I've got more experience of living at this age than than maybe some others.

I see what you did.

There are a large county identifies as socially liberal and fiscally conservative, which is how many Vermonters would describe our governor, Phil Scott.

Laurie writes in discussions with fellow Vermonters.

I find this position incredibly common.

Do either of you identify in that way?

And if not, can you give an example of a time in which you worked successfully with people who do?

Lieutenant Governor.

Well, first of all, it's a complex question, because ultimately I am very fiscally conservative as a farmer running a small business and squeezing every value out of every dollar to make sure the business can run successfully.

And I think about that the same way in government, which is why I took to the governor the idea of reducing the bureaucracy between the human services world and the education world.

So that's one form of fiscal conservative when it comes to taxes.

I am much more liberal because or progressive because since Reagan we've seen tax cuts for the wealthier and we've seen our services decline and our investments in our schools decline.

And that's why we're hitting everyday working people.

So it's a complex set of words.

Thank you.

And Thomas Renner, I'll give you a little extra time to.

Yeah, I wouldn't say that I am fiscally conservative.

I am definitely liberal on my policies and my beliefs.

But what I do believe is that I understand and listen to Vermonters and understand the financial difficulties that a lot of Vermonters are feeling right now, that small businesses are feeling right now.

And I think those voices need to be elevated.

If that's being conservative, then that's what we can call it.

But I think it's more about making sure that we're doing policy and bringing forward programs that Vermonters deserve, but also that they can afford.

Thank You.

Catherine in Rutland County asks, Do we have too much enough or too little gun control in Vermont on this rider?

You know, Vermont has a long history of being a sportsman state.

But we also, as I speak to Vermonters, nobody is afraid of background checks or making sure that their weapons are secured safely in their homes so that nobody can access them who shouldn't be accessing them safely.

That's that.

I think there's more work that we can do on gun control when we know that there's a problem across our country.

And we never want to see any of the terrible things that happen in schools and elsewhere.

So, yes, there's more work that we can do in terms of amplifying background checks, making sure that people who shouldn't have guns don't have them, and particularly making sure that people are safe.

I think about them over time.

I just want to make one point about, you know, relationships that have fallen apart and women who are threatened under any type of violence, making sure that that person they were in a relationship with cannot access guns.

Thank you, Lieutenant Governor.

Well, I'd say we've actually done quite a bit in the last few years, and they've been really good legislation, whether it was the red flag laws, whether it was expanding background checks, whether it was a waiting period, particularly around suicide or crimes of passion, is, as Thomas just talked about, with the unfortunate reality that primarily men injure women in those circumstances.

I do still think there's work to be done, particularly around high powered the term.

Some people uses assault weapons, but of course other people say that's the wrong term.

But as a whole, people don't need that for hunting.

They don't need that for our traditional uses.

And I think we need to really look at that area.

Brief follow up question then for both of you.

Should Vermonters be allowed to buy assault rifles in the state of Vermont?

You know, I don't think so.

We don't need them.

People don't need them.

I don't see why we need them.

I come from a hunting family.

You don't want to use that for hunting?

Actually, it's really bad for hunting.

Thank you.

The Green Mountain Job and retention program repays up to $5,000 a year in student loans for Vermont college graduates who stay in state and work for at least two years.

But many Vermont businesses, despite this program existing, are still struggling to hire enough workers as lieutenant governor, how would you help convince college graduates to stay in Vermont?

Do you support the continuation of this program?

Lieutenant Governor Oh, I definitely support it, and maybe it needs to be expanded.

But also we're going to go back to housing over and over and over again.

Like I said, 58,002nd homes in Vermont.

If Just 5000 of those became primary residences.

That would be a huge shift in the availability of housing for working people.

Or if we actually moved a number of those investment.

Airbnbs, I'll use that term rather than instate or out of state owned investment.

Airbnbs Back into the long term rental market, you would have the opportunity for high school and college graduates to stay in Vermont.

Housing is a huge issue.

Vermont is very desirable.

People with a lot of money are buying up the properties and then it impossible for others to live here.

Thank you.

Thomas Renner.

Yeah.

Student loans are something I know all too well.

I am still paying mine and many times I have difficulty paying mine.

So expanding on that program I think is important to help Vermonters who need it.

And yes, we're back to housing.

When I talked about my little cousins who are at UVM, who, you know, one of them graduated and left and wasn't because he wanted to leave, it was because he couldn't find housing here.

He left.

He went to Boston and was able to find a job and able to find housing.

So we need to change that narrative of of housing here.

We need to build the housing.

We also need to make it a place that's attractive for businesses to do business so that kids don't feel like they have to go to Boston to make a high earning career.

Thank you.

Well, we had a anonymous listener in Orange County ask us a question about housing the homeless and in particular, veterans who are struggling to find housing.

We keep coming back to housing again and again.

It's a big topic in our citizens agenda.

So I'd like to ask you here to speak specifically to veterans who might be struggling not just with housing, with other cost issues, maybe reference a time in which you have worked with the veteran or military community to support them.

And Thomas Renner, we'll start with you.

So my husband's a veteran.

He served in Iraq and he received a Purple Heart for the work that he did there and what he what happened to him while he was there.

So veterans issues, to say the least, are incredibly important to me.

When I worked for Congresswoman Brown, I covered veterans issues.

I worked extensively with the VA. And homelessness within the veteran community is something that we talked about with the VA all the time.

As far as I'm concerned, if you have been willing to give your life to our country, we should make sure that your mental health is taken care of, your health is taken care of, that you have a home to live in, that if life gets you down, we are taking care of you at the very least.

Thank you.

Lieutenant Governor?

Yeah.

I think my mind contemporary here stated it really well in that, you know, these folks, our veterans have put their lives on the line for all of us to have the freedoms and liberties that we have.

And it is incredibly important that we make sure they at least have housing.

I mean, it's kind of absurd that we have homeless veterans.

I was down in D.C. at a conference and within sight of the White House.

You've got folks living on the street who have served our country.

And it was it was heartbreaking to see most of the veterans programs are done through federal money and federal program, federal government.

So I appreciate the work that Thomas did through Congresswoman Walsh's office and laying out casting ballots in office and Senator Leahy's office.

But there's always more we can do.

And that's one of the reasons I've supported housing our homeless.

We've had 1000 homeless long before COVID, and we didn't have these programs, and I think we need to continue them.

Thank you.

An anonymous listener in Chittenden County asks, How do you plan to address the growing illegal drug use that is so openly visible in our cities and towns?

They write that they understand it is a very complex problem that needs a multi-pronged.

So please avoid using that phrasing here.

But they do want to know how will you help?

And Lieutenant Governor, we'll start with you.

Sure.

You know, a few years ago, I was brought up to an old seminary in Johnson as the Tetro family was considering what to do after their daughter had suffered from an overdose death and they were heartbroken and they said, we want to do something about it.

And they've since built up Jenna's promise, which many people have heard about.

We absolutely need to find a way to expand programs like China's Promise, where not only are there services to deal with the acute situations, but also housing and job placement and support for six months to a year to get people back on their feet into new circles of community so that they don't drop back into the challenges of substance use disorder.

We need to have fewer people get into that as well.

And that's back to housing and economics, of course.

Thank you.

And Thomas Renner.

Yeah, I know exactly what this college talking about.

I've worked downtown and I have seen, you know, these these people who are struggling and we need to be supporting them on multiple levels.

You know, I don't think anybody I know that nobody wants to be in that situation where they are openly using substances out in public.

So we need to be investing in mental health.

We need to be investing in job programs and housing and all of those things because you can have a program where somebody, you know, talks to a psychiatrist and gets the medication that they need.

But if they don't have somewhere to live, if they don't have the supports to help them get a job, they're just going to go right back into into that lifestyle or it's going to be very hard to not do that.

Thank you.

Well, we do have time today for a brief lightning round before the end of the debate.

This is my favorite part.

Please keep your answers as short as possible here, 10 seconds or less.

Your first question is, do you think we should increase wages for Vermont lawmakers, including the lieutenant governor, Thomas Renner?

I don't know about the lieutenant governor.

I think it's a pretty decent salary.

But for our lawmakers, yes, it keeps people out of that building because people do not they don't get paid enough.

And a lot of Vermonters can't afford to live on that salary.

Lawmakers.

Yes.

Lieutenant, no.

And again, we lost a couple of legislators either not running or even last year left, right at the beginning of their term, because the economics do not work.

And there are great minds who want to talk about diversity and getting young people in.

That's part of it.

Is sports betting a net positive or negative for Vermonters?

Negative?

Yeah, it can it can lead to some really some behaviors that we don't want.

The tax portion, sure.

As positive.

But what comes with that?

Should Vermont mandate paid family leave for all workers?

Thomas Renner.

Yes, absolutely.

Every Western civilized society has paid family, medical leave and universal health care, by the way.

And those are economic needs in our state.

How do you pay for it?

You know, I think that when we talk about taxing our folks who have done the best in our society and asking them to pitch in a little bit more.

Well, when America was great, according to some people, the highest tax bracket was that actually 80 and 90%.

So I do think those at the top of the economic spectrum could afford to pay more.

So our society works better.

And last question.

We're in the midst of the Summer Olympics right now.

What sport are you most enjoying watching, lieutenant governor?

Well, swimming because my wife was a phenomenal swimmer in high school.

And she tells me every detail about the strokes and everything else, and they're just always to the wire.

So there are a lot of fun times.

Rugby's been really cool because we have a Vermont star, but swimming in the sun.

I've seen the sun.

It's very interesting that that's why they're doing it.

Most of it's in the pool, enjoying that.

All right.

Well, I love that we could all agree that we love the Olympics.

Time now for a closing statement from each candidate.

The order was determined randomly before the show.

And Lieutenant Governor David Zuckerman, you'll start us off.

Well, thank you.

I really appreciate the opportunity.

And I hope after this discussion you'll give me your vote between now and the August 13th primary.

I was inspired by Bernie a number of decades ago, and I've been a public servant for you for 24 of the last 28 years and have successfully fought for issues like increase in minimum wage, building affordable housing, reducing your exposure to toxic chemicals.

I've led on civil rights like marriage equality.

I was the lead sponsor in 2005 of that legislation and criminal justice reforms.

I've worked really hard to address the opioid crisis, and I've worked tirelessly to fight climate change, both professionally as a farmer and also as policymaker.

I know the education funding system is hurting the working class folks the most.

And second, homeowners and folks at higher income earners could pay more because they are paying a lower tax rate than you are.

The Senate will have more than half of its members as new senators in the last two sessions.

And I think my experience in both passing legislation and running the process is incredibly important at this time, and I hope you'll support me for the next two years.

Steiner of Vermont Public, thank you for hosting.

Michaela, thank you for moderating.

David, thanks for being here.

I'm Thomas Renner.

I'm running for lieutenant governor to bring a new voice to Montpelier, a voice with a different background to bring new leadership to Montpelier as someone who represents the margins, the marginalized, regular Vermonters and diverse Vermonters.

I'm running to bring leadership to the state that represents where Vermont is going and where it's been.

I'm running as a Democrat because I believe in our party's values.

A party that champions workers, women, uplift young voices, empowers diverse voices.

As deputy mayor of Winooski, I've worked on the issues that Vermonters care about housing affordability, opportunity, and as a municipal leader, I've had the privilege of hearing folks has problems right at the grassroots level.

Throughout my career, working for some of Vermont's most respected public servants, Senator Leahy and Congresswoman Balin, and my work in the health care sector, I've been dedicated to one thing above all else champion Vermonters and working for Vermonters and dedicating myself to those people as lieutenant governor.

I'll be dedicated to doing just that every single day for Vermonters, lifting up voices, empowering people, and making sure other people are involved.

If you want to learn more about me, please visit Thomas for Vermont dot com.

And please vote for me on August 13th.

Thank you.

This concludes the Democratic primary debate for lieutenant governor on Vermont public.

Many thanks to our two candidates for being here today.

Thomas Renner, deputy mayor of Winooski.

Lieutenant Governor David Zuckerman of Hynes Berg.

You can learn more about all of the candidates in this race ahead of the primary on August 13th on Vermont public dot org front porch forum is Vermont public's lead outreach partner for the Citizens Agenda Project.

The Vermont Public Debate Series is produced by Holt Albee and Daniella Fierro with production support from Andrea Laurean, Dave Rice, Brian Stevenson, Kyla Ambusk, Kaylee Mumford, Joey Palumbo, Riley Cartwright and Frank Allwine.

Audio Engineering by Peter English and Radio Production by Jake Rusnock.

Our video production today was directed by Mike Dunn.

I'm Mikaela Lefrak.

Lefrak, thank you so much for listening.